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shotguns are op

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shotguns are annoying and no fun, if this game gonna be any different shotguns should be difficult to use in some way either reduce damage or whatever.
 

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Shotguns are gimped by RNG. You might one shot or you might put 5 shots into a person before they die.

Deff not OP actually pretty bad to use unless you are lucky. A AR is better upclose weapon then a shot guns because you can always kill a enemy with in half a second spray but if the first shot dosnt kill or you miss with a shotty it means you have almost a full second to try again unless you vepr but that will kick you far enough off to still make AR better. 

ARs are already like 3 shot kills vs the 1-5 shots of RNG and this is counting back shots not chest.

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On 9/6/2019 at 8:09 AM, Anunnaki said:

shotguns are annoying and no fun, if this game gonna be any different shotguns should be difficult to use in some way either reduce damage or whatever.
 

I disagree.

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shotguns always kill the game. (cod ww2 for example) i stopped playing that game thanks to the shotgun fireshells.

i always die with one shotgun shot in ww3
everyone will rock a shotgun if it stays that powerfull.

 

 

On 9/9/2019 at 12:53 AM, Big Chocolate said:

I disagree.

why? how? unless you wish game death it makes sense.

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Go play 4 games, 2 with using shotguns only and 2 with ur favorite/best gun. Average your kills/deaths then come back and tell me that shotguns are still OP. 

I'd maybe agree if there was an unbalanced skillfloor/cap, but there really isn't. 

You have the MCS, pump action shotty, does what you'd expect. Tends to work pretty well, if you have dead on aim at closer ranges it's usually a consistent kill. If your aim is off you gonna have a bad day.

Medium skill floor, medium ceiling. It's the definition of a weapon you gotta earn your kills with. The MCS is balanced in that it allows a player with good aim and positioning to get a one shot kill, but because of the low rate of fire, it doesn't scale well into encounters with multiple enemies or where you can't kill on the first shot. It's the equivalent to a bolt action sniper, but good at close range and bad at long range. 

The vepr tho, it's also exactly what you expect from a semi auto shotty. It serves the opposite role to the MCS in that the high rate of fire let's you spam and still get kills. It's a "noob friendly" gun. It's also a pro favorite, too. 

Low skill floor, high skill ceiling. If you're able to make quick snapshots and move between multiple targets quickly and accurately, the high RoF makes it much better than the MCS at fighting multiple opponents. The downsides that balance it are that the vepr is NOT a consistent kill. The range for it is abysmal, and in general you're just going to be doing less damage shot for shot than the MCS, especially so if you don't have pinpoint accuracy. It also burns through ammo very fast if you spam for your kills, and can quickly force you to swap to another gun. Again, similar balancing concept as semi auto snipers.

Fun fact! This balance "schema" (Low Floor/High Ceiling)  is very common in games. Not to be confused with LF/LC, such as the classic "noob toob" 

 

If anyone wants to discuss game balance it's a topic I really enjoy so hmu

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I think the same like Zvolteh. Sure its a one kill weapon on a certain range but you really need a very good aim. The reload rates are very slow when you run out of ammo and also it only works in close combat situations. A lot of people tell me that i am OP with my MCS but i normally have a K/D around 1.1-1.3 in a match.

Most of the players i met with my MCS are just frustrated because if got better timing and aiming, but on long ranges the MCS sucks like hell as a shotgun should do and does in real life and WW3 :)

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Shotguns are very good and effective weapons in Team Deathmatch, due to the big amount of Close Quarter Combat you experience in that game mode.

Never felt Shotguns Op while playing War Zone and i had far better K/D ratio with a different weapon for about 90% of the match.

 

Edited by Ziogualty

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They are indeed OP. ?
The main problem with shotguns is their inconsistent dispersion and fire rate, but worry not, it will be overhauled in the future.

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On 9/14/2019 at 10:47 AM, Anunnaki said:

why? how? unless you wish game death it makes sense.

Let me give you a spoon so I can make it easier for you to put words in my mouth. I disagreed, didn't say anything negative. 

I'm also gonna add some words: If you think the shotgun is OP then I'm going to go ahead and just say you all suck at the game. So please, drop down the leadeboards where you scrubs belong. Bang Bang

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@Big Chocolate Nah, man, they really are.
Their damage curves, dispersion and fire rate absolutely melts people on ranges designed for SMG or even short-barreled AR. Shotguns should got their advantage only in CQC and point blank situation.

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Have there any changes been made in the last update? The shotgun seems to be much more ineffective now even on short distances. Can anyone confirm?

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11 hours ago, Fuxx said:

Have there any changes been made in the last update?

Yes, we've made it so barrels have much bigger influence on the damage over distance now. If you equip a long barrell, it will still have good spread on long distances, but it also reduces damage in close quarters. Short barrel does the opposite, naturally.

Mind you, this is still going to be changed and balanced, so don't worry if some things are OP - we haven't balanced the game more than 'it feels right' and with some statistics of usage yet.

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8 hours ago, Ragir said:

If you equip a long barrell, it will still have good spread on long distances, but it also reduces damage in close quarters.

My brain is trying to make sense of this. How could a Long Barrel on a Shotgun decrease Close range damage, yet improve long distance performance?

Or is this a Video game balance thing for the time being?

Edited by Dunabar

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9 часов назад, Ragir сказал:

Yes, we've made it so barrels have much bigger influence on the damage over distance now. If you equip a long barrell, it will still have good spread on long distances, but it also reduces damage in close quarters. Short barrel does the opposite, naturally.

There was long barrel domination, now there is short barrel domination. No reasons to equip long barrel, if short barrel DPS overmatches all distances, which assault rifles are used in.

Ofc. you can choose long barrel, switch to single fire, and you'll get some kind of DMR... but who cares, if you have G29 (or M417)😉

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15 hours ago, Dunabar said:

Or is this a Video game balance thing for the time being?

This is a video game balance, since WW3 is a video game, we can't make it realistic, otherwise shotguns will just be always OP and the best weapon, since you can't see as well in game as in real world and the engagements are generally at closer range than in real life.

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3 minutes ago, Ragir said:

This is a video game balance, since WW3 is a video game, we can't make it realistic, otherwise shotguns will just be always OP and the best weapon, since you can't see as well in game as in real world and the engagements are generally at closer range than in real life.

In short - Suffer dear brain, suffer.

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11 minutes ago, Dunabar said:

In short - Suffer dear brain, suffer.

It's called suspension of disbelief and it's required to play games IMO :P Aren't respawns also really weird? Spawning mid-air on leader? Injecting yourself with vitamins giving you health back? There's a lot of stuff that's very game-ified, and shotguns are legendarily hard to balance in shooters, so we have to find ways of doing it.

That said, final balance is still to come, so don't despair too much 😛

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1 hour ago, Ragir said:

It's called suspension of disbelief and it's required to play games IMO :P Aren't respawns also really weird? Spawning mid-air on leader? Injecting yourself with vitamins giving you health back? There's a lot of stuff that's very game-ified, and shotguns are legendarily hard to balance in shooters, so we have to find ways of doing it.

That said, final balance is still to come, so don't despair too much 😛

Trust me, I can suspend a lot of disbelief. That is why I don't gripe about respawning in general with the current game modes, Spawning mid-air on leaders (Though I could gripe about spawning for other reasons that has nothing to do with Reality vs. Video Game), Injecting myself with magical "Bullet Wounds be gone" meds, a magical station that can magic my Vehicle back to full performance without a crew of Mechanics busting their backsides to repair my stuff, Steel Plate Armor not laughing off 9mm caliber rounds, and etc etc...But, there does come a point where I believe its fair to question a game's rules within it's own self-contained universe. A Long Barrel Shotgun some how doing reduced damage at close range is just three sizes too large of a Disbelief Pill for me to swallow. 😛

I'm sure you can already imagine how "fun" I will be come time for final balance. Lol

Edited by Dunabar

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2 minutes ago, Dunabar said:

A Long Barrel Shotgun some how doing reduced damage at close range is just three sizes too large of a Disbelief Pill for me to swallow

The idea behind that is that you have a meaningful choice when it comes to your customization. If we went with longer barrel = more damage on all distances, we can just skip them and leave on in, there's no point in choosing shorter barrels at all. They change how spread works as well, but that's also always better to have it smaller, so, again, there's no point in having short or medium barrels at all. This actually applies to all weapons, though with rifles shorter barrels also increase the rate of fire, so the choices there are also making sense.

In general, we wanted the barrel to make the biggest impact on how the weapon works and while we know this is not 100% accurate, the idea that your customization can make your weapon better in certain engagements than the other player's weapon and that you can prepare and suit the weapon to your playstyle is more important than realism, which was never the goal in WW3 - we've always called it "playable realism", with gameplay being in the front and realism trailing behind to keep the game world authentic enough.

This all means one thing: WW3 will never be a milsim and some gameplay mechanics are strictly arcade, so the customization is meaningful and not just cosmetic, so there's no clear "better" attachments, just attachments that fill a different role and good choices will give you an edge over the enemy.

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I can totally understand the motivation behind this decision but I am with Dunabar here.

The other examples you mention are necessary compromises for a fluid gameplay but to me giving shorter barrels a higher base damage feels just off. This might be mainly because it would rather be quite the opposite irl but also from a gameplay perspective I am quite sceptical about this because Feuereuphorie has described the current situation quite well.

I am not suggesting a higher base damage for long barrels but instead a mobility bonus for short barrels and if I recall correctly I am not the only one who did. Maybe you can go a bit into detail why the team prefers the current solution over the mobility solution (i.e. give long barrels ADS restrictions, a longer ADS time, give heavier weapons sn additional malus to running speed)? 

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2 hours ago, HeiligeRobbe said:

giving shorter barrels a higher base damage feels just off

They only have higher damage on close range, and the damage drops off quicker, so it looks kinda like this (this is really quick and dirty):

image.png

It's more of a gameplay decision of "will I shoot short range or long range more" rather than anything else.

As for the other suggestions: ADS time, reload time and other variables are also playing a role, but to make those balanced it's not enough IMO - I'm not saying that this is perfect by any means (and I still agree that shotguns are OP), but it does help with balancing the different roles.

As I said, with shotguns, it's still the problem of long barrel being a sniper barrel and short barrels making close quarters combat heavily favor guys with shotguns. It doesn't matter what the reload time or ADS speed is when all you have to do is drop two shots from point blank from hip fire to win a firefight even against a 7.62 LMG. If we tried to balance it using only other stats than damage, the spread from hip would have to be 180 degrees (just random chance to kill someone), reload would have to be laughably slow etc.

BUT! That doesn't mean that we won't try to strike a balance here with less damage diferences and more of those auxiliary parameters, we've just added separate horizontal and vertical recoil modifiers, so we could just make the short barrel kick more horizontally.

Problem is, someone is gonna make a forum post explaining, that this is not how stuff works and we should just make long barrels do less damage on short distances :P

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Ppl saying shotguns are OP... Did u play WW3 when it was IIRC 0.2? This is when they were OP. Now they are... good, but nothing to worry about on WZ. Or TS is one of the TDM players?

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8 часов назад, Ragir сказал:

They only have higher damage on close range, and the damage drops off quicker, so it looks kinda like this (this is really quick and dirty):

You have forgotten one more thing: Rate Of Fire multiplier.

For example, we have favourable by many players AK-15. On far range long barrel deals average 32*0.9=28.4 damage compare to medium barrel. Short barrel deals average 28*1.05=29.4 damage. If player is skillful enough to compensate recoil (it is still possible in WW3 despite sway and random side kicks added), short barrel deals higher DPS on far range, than long barrel. Remember, that short barrel also has recoil decreasing property.

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