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tynblpb

[Weapon][Attachment] Balancing the long/short barrels.

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In 0.7 PTE Feedback theme there was discussion about newly added difference in the initial dmg of bullets for long/medium/short barrels.

Where some absurd if talk about "reality" changes were applied. In short, bullets that were shot from long barrels have less initial dmg than those of the short barrels. it was done to make some balancing because long barrels with their 0.2 decrease of vertical recoil without any penalty were simply no-brain choice.

So, to balance it devs made long barrels "weaker". Many were confused.

Why don't we choose other way around to balance long/short barrels? As of now the only difference long and short barrels have are initial dmg and vertical recoil if we talk about shooting itself.

Short barrels having higher initial dmg is "illogical" difference. Long barrels having less vertical recoil is "logical" difference(heavier barrel blablabla).

My suggestion is to keep "logical" difference "longer barrel - higher dmg" and add another "logical" difference in barrels stats:

as long barrels have less vertical recoil is logical, having them higher horizontal recoil is also somewhat logical. In 0.8PTE horizontal recoil is now working.

Currently the most preferrable fire mode is full-auto and with long barrel simply spray'n'praying is still quite effective tactics even on long distances. So, spraying full-auto on long distances should be somehow punished.

And the only idea I have is to increase horizontal recoil of full-auto firing for long barrels. Something like "shooting FULL-AUTO increases horizontal recoil by 0.2-0.3(TBD).". And the bullet dispersion would look like this(roughly).

Dispersion.jpg.bb22651b2c173f993bbe74e6767fe6ec.jpg

And if u want to run with long barrel and spray 60-75 rounds drums be prepared to be much less effective.

And thus ppl would be forced to choose: higher dmg and decent accuracy on long distances? Okay, but only for semi-auto and 3 rounds bursts. Going full-auto only on short distances where the higher horizontal recoil would not affect the chances to hit target that much. Or u can try to compensate horizontal recoil with special grips but be prepared that even though ur horizontal recoil is under control - ur vertical recoil is now much-much higher. U r sure u'll be able to compensate it when shooting full-auto?

IMO, this fits WW3's rock-paper-scissors logic better than "illogical" higher-short-barrel-dmg idea.

Just to be sure: ONLY FOR FULL-AUTO FIRING WITH LONG BARREL ATTACHED.

@Borreh, was something like this discussed amongst the devs?

For example short/long barrel stats for MSBS-B.

20191030224933_1.thumb.jpg.0ef06ad705fc0233ba0726b71b8108d4.jpg20191030224922_1.thumb.jpg.d335e8ef3ea21e9af4b7ac93942269ab.jpg

Edited by tynblpb
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Sounds like a very good suggestion to me. Because of this subject I read a bit about short vs. long barrels and automatic fire might lead to more vibration in a longer barrel which is probably the logic for the horizontal recoil you refer to.

On top I would significantly increase the ADS time and still propose that going ads is possible only if there is enough space. 

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8 часов назад, †FeuerEuphorie† сказал:

What, if barrels will not operate with recoil at all?

But spread.

Long barrel - less ADS spread.

Short barrel - less hipfire spread.

And vice versa.

The point was to make shooting ADS(full-auto)less preferable for long barrel. I'm ADSing even when enemy is 5-10m away. And only if it is extreme CQC like in garages on C2 Polyarny, then I'm hipfiring. And if long barrels would have less spread when ADS they would be even more preferable than they are now.

Another question is if horizontal recoil in my suggestion would be replaced by spread.

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7 часов назад, tynblpb сказал:

preferable than they are now.

Long barrels have lowest DPS even on long ranges (medium is the strongest option). So, I don't think, they are "preferable" since 0.7.

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27 минут назад, †FeuerEuphorie† сказал:

Long barrels have lowest DPS even on long ranges (medium is the strongest option).

Where did that idea came from?

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51 минуту назад, tynblpb сказал:

Where did that idea came from?

For example. AK-15 with medium barrel deals 30 damage on long range and has standart rate of fire. We take this as X

Long barrel deals 32 damage on long range and has 0.9 rate of fire. 32/30*0,9=0.96x

Short barrel deals 28 damage on long range and has 1.05 rate of fire. 28/30*1.05=0.98x.

Edited by †FeuerEuphorie†

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16 hours ago, †FeuerEuphorie† said:

What, if barrels will not operate with recoil at all?

But spread.
 

I think it makes sense that different barrel lengths and thus weights affect recoil. This is probably the most intuitive way to differentiate them.

Affecting spread is an interesting suggestion, but isn't it quite illogical that the same barrel has different effects on spread depending on how you hold the weapon?

As far as I understood tynblpb correctly the intention of this thread is to find a way to better balance long and short barrels than in 0.6 (when long barrels were far superior) which doesn't make people frown like it is in 0.7 (where short barrels are far better because the damage drop off starts too late but this has already been mentioned by the devs) and I agree that this is an important question.

What I like about the horizontal recoil idea is that it adresses also the issue that spraying on long range is in my opinion too easy: If you are in a duel on longer ranges like 80 - 100 m and one player is trying to tap fire after peeking quickly he will often be thrown off target by the sway (here I agree with FeuerEuphorie - it is just annoying in its current state) because the adjustment on target I have to do differs significantly depending on the current sway movement. One player can happily spray with a 50 round mag and the sway won't really matter because of the amount of bullets.

This leads to another illogical situation: With a six or even eight times scope it is still easier and much preferable to spray because recoil is so easy to control than to go for single accurate shots.

What I would prefer (quite subjectively) is the same initial and final damage independent of the barrel length but the short barrel damage drop off starts significantly earlier. The short barrel is also lighter so it has a higher vertical recoil but has a higher RPM, a quicker ADS time, and to factor in FeuerEuphorie's proposition - a more predictable spray pattern (because it is less front heavy and the shorter barrel vibrates less as real world justification). On top I would love to see longer barrels being unable to ads close to obstacles or on stairs for example.

Overall I think this is a more logical way to balance barrel lengths.

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37 минут назад, †FeuerEuphorie† сказал:

For example. AK-15 with medium barrel deals 30 damage on long range and has standart rate of fire. We take this as X

Long barrel deals 32 damage on long range and has 0.9 rate of fire. 32/30*0,9=0.96x

Short barrel deals 28 damage on long range and has 1.05 rate of fire. 28/30*1.05=0.98x.

Sorry if I dissappoint u, but there is NO difference in RoF between long/medium/short barrels. There wasn't any half of a year ago, there is no now.

 

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22 минуты назад, HeiligeRobbe сказал:

I think it makes sense that different barrel lengths and thus weights affect recoil. This is probably the most intuitive way to differentiate them.

Affecting spread is an interesting suggestion, but isn't it quite illogical that the same barrel has different effects on spread depending on how you hold the weapon?

Barrel's length affect recoil some opposite way.

1) In one hand, long barrel weapon has less acceleration due it higher weight. Recoil reduces.
2) In other hand, the longer barrel accelerate the bullet, the higher velocity the bullet has. The weapon accelerates the bullet, and the bullet accelerates the weapon (3rd Newton's law). Higher velocity - higher momentum - higher recoil.

So, it hard to say, how changes the recoil.

"Spread" in hipfire means here "random uncontrollable recoil, when weapon's stock isn't pushed up to your shoulder".
Also, short barrels can be more precise while movement, both ADS and hipfire, ect. (Hi, Planetside)
After playing BF:5 for 2 weeks. I realised, that LMG are well balanced due looong ADS time. So, can we have it for long barrels, that is equal in WW3 to LMG (LMG-AR-Carbine).

14 минут назад, tynblpb сказал:

Sorry if I dissappoint u, but there is NO difference in RoF between long/medium/short barrels. There wasn't any half of a year ago, there is no now.

Oh really?  I'm very happy, if RoF difference doesn't exist. Devs should update information layer so.

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12 hours ago, †FeuerEuphorie† said:

Barrel's length affect recoil some opposite way.

1) In one hand, long barrel weapon has less acceleration due it higher weight. Recoil reduces.
2) In other hand, the longer barrel accelerate the bullet, the higher velocity the bullet has. The weapon accelerates the bullet, and the bullet accelerates the weapon (3rd Newton's law). Higher velocity - higher momentum - higher recoil.

Overall the effect of a longer barrel is to reduce recoil. The main gains in velocity over distance from longer barrels come from having a longer section of rifling that makes the bullet rotate faster, keeping it more in line with its trajectory. The bullet accelerates minimally in the last part of a barrel, and the resultant impulse against the user takes a longer time to affect them as the weapon has a higher inertia because of its increased mass.

In my opinion, though, here's what I think should factor in when it comes to the long vs. short barrel question for the user.

What I think the benefits of a short barrel should be:

  • Lower ADS time - benefits in lower mid range combat when acquiring targets
  • Lower weight - faster when carrying in loadout and thus more effective movement
  • Faster rate of fire - lower time to kill against longer barrelled rifles, making it a better choice in CQC (note this is true in a rifle not because of the barrel length itself but because in longer barrel weapons the gas system is often further down the barrel, causing it to take longer to cycle)
  • Less time to shoot from running - when running, the gun will fire sooner when you hold the mouse button as it takes less time to turn the gun towards the target

What I think the drawbacks of a short barrel should be:

  • Increased recoil - decreased mass of weapon mean that the recoil impulse travels to the user in a lower amount of time, making it sharper, especially with the higher rate of fire
  • Increased random kicks or spread - this is mostly for balance purposes and makes it more difficult to use at longer ranges, negating the benefits of the higher rate of fire when shooting over range
  • Increased damage drop off - while this may not be a big factor for the majority of combat in WW3, it could become more so if larger maps are introduced

What I think the benefits of a long barrel should be:

  • Decreased recoil - mass reduces impulse, and lower rate of fire also reduces amount of impulses
  • Decreased spread/kicks - bullets hit on target easier and stay there at longer ranges
  • Less drop off - depending on the weapon, a few points of decreased damage can make the difference between a four and five shot kill.

What I think the drawbacks of a long barrel should be:

  • Higher ADS time - more planning needs to be put into encounters, and it will take more time to clear areas with multiple pieces of cover
  • Higher weight - makes it a heavier weapon and reduces options for other weapons in loadout
  • Lower rate of fire - while this makes it less deadly in CQC, it will be more controllable over range
13 hours ago, HeiligeRobbe said:

What I like about the horizontal recoil idea is that it adresses also the issue that spraying on long range is in my opinion too easy: If you are in a duel on longer ranges like 80 - 100 m and one player is trying to tap fire after peeking quickly he will often be thrown off target by the sway (here I agree with FeuerEuphorie - it is just annoying in its current state) because the adjustment on target I have to do differs significantly depending on the current sway movement.

I really wouldn't mind this idea, but one would have to keep in mind the BTK in WW3 right now. Usually bursts of 6-8 bullets are best in CQC for killing an enemy because the BTK is increased to allow players a chance to dive for cover if nearby. If a player really wants to tap fire they should pick a weapon with a higher calibre that has a greater ability to kill. Tap firing with lighter calibres of weapons is for the most part unsatisfying as it takes many shots to get a kill.

13 hours ago, HeiligeRobbe said:

One player can happily spray with a 50 round mag and the sway won't really matter because of the amount of bullets.

The whole discussion about mag sizes is a different one I would love to entertain somewhere else, because I think more thought should be put into balancing towards smaller mag sizes.

 

13 hours ago, HeiligeRobbe said:

On top I would love to see longer barrels being unable to ads close to obstacles or on stairs for example.

I would entirely be up for this, would make players consider which weapons they want to bring into which environments.

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14 hours ago, tynblpb said:

Sorry if I dissappoint u, but there is NO difference in RoF between long/medium/short barrels. There wasn't any half of a year ago, there is no now.

 

The question here is still if it is intentional that there is no effect on the RPM (and the stats pages aren't up to date) or if it is indeed bugged and the RPM difference is still supposed to be in the game.

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8 часов назад, nubbits сказал:

note this is true in a rifle not because of the barrel length itself but because in longer barrel weapons the gas system is often further down the barrel, causing it to take longer to cycle

Well, it's not always true. For example, AK-74M (assault rifle), AK-105 (carbine) and RPK-74M (LMG) have same gas system, but different lenght of the barrel.

Old AKS-74U had shorter gas system, and YES, it had slighly higher RoF.

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14 hours ago, †FeuerEuphorie† said:

Well, it's not always true. For example, AK-74M (assault rifle), AK-105 (carbine) and RPK-74M (LMG) have same gas system, but different lenght of the barrel.

Old AKS-74U had shorter gas system, and YES, it had slighly higher RoF.

Yeah I didn't mean for that to be the rule. For manufacturing reasons it can be cheaper to make one length of gas system, however they are often extended because that decreases RoF and recoil

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