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Artaxiad300062

New Banning System

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Weekly report #46 talked about some new banning practices F51 has introduced to WW3. Pretty much the entire community disagreed with the idea. 

Here are just a few comments: 

"Banning toxic players seems sketch. How is 'toxicity' measured? Also, these 'toxic' players probably have insights as to what should be done about the game (community engagement), they also point out the people who complain about the game without even playing."

"This playerbase is tiny as is, permanent bans are just a dumb idea. They should go with temporary bans that get longer as the person continues with bad behavior, up to a week. Perma-ban on a game with less than 100 players... Jesus Christ." 

"VAC bans for "toxicity"?
What the ♥♥♥♥ is this?
VAC is an anti-cheat."

"Ehhh not sure if you can afford drastic measures like that at this point. Guys, you seriously need reality check."

"Vac bans for toxicity is that a joke? Game is broken servers are empty and you guys care about some ♥♥♥♥♥♥ toxicity i give up on this crap and going back to battlefield 4 at least this title have players."

"Hrm. I understand no one wants toxicity, but threatening with VAC bans on user's steam profiles is absolutely the wrong way to go about it."

"So, someone on a bad day has the potential to have their attitude cost them a VAC anticheat ban and their reputation? Why is this even important enough to post on the weekly report, with such small numbers of players to begin with. Whoever posted this report was right to include the part "sounds a bit scary", because yeah, it's real logical to admit that you're practicing scary consequences. Truly a mistake to have made here devs. I'd reevaluate that sort of thinking when it comes to getting your state of production news across to a small group of diehard fans." 

 

It's safe to say, most of the community considers the permanent bans for "toxic" activity to quite ridiculous. Even BF and other AAA games are not this punishing to trolls and people with bad behavior. I think most people would be fine with chat banning for a few days, maybe even a full week, but not allowing players to access the game at all just because of some mistakes they made? Some people may have bad days and may then spread their negativity in-game, but these people are either ignored or people simply have a good time laughing at how they make a fool of themselves. The devs should not take someones bad day as an opportunity to remove them from having access to the game, permanently. I'm not sure who came up with this idea, but once again, I will say I see very bright minds in the F51 team and some not so bright people, to put it lightly. How this got through to a weekly report, ask Jesus, maybe he knows. 

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10 minutes ago, Artaxiad300062 said:

permanent bans for "toxic" activity to quite ridiculous

systematic activity. Not just you said once some words about someone`s mom and you got permanently banned. People who is being toxic all the time are not quite adequate IMO

The idea is to ban toxic player,lets say, for 24h, then 72h and only then permanently

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55 минут назад, Artaxiad300062 сказал:

It's safe to say, most of the community considers the permanent bans for "toxic" activity to quite ridiculous. Even BF and other AAA games are not this punishing to trolls and people with bad behavior

IMO, the idea was to give some dude with "bad day" 24-72 hours to cool off or fix the problems with his life. If it didn't help and the same dude will have the same behavior then it will be 1 week. If it didn't help either and man continues to have "bad days" then it means it is chronic and he should think about his health and not about playing the game.

 And if I understood  right what was written on Discord, it wasn't about 1 or 2 words in chat. It's about someone like the guy who last week was for 15mins writing insults in chat. @Ragir, could u plz confirm or deny this 24hrs,week, permanent thing?

Btw, I'm in strike zone too, because I often forget to remove word "idiots" after the words "useless" or "hopeless" addressed to my team.

Edited by tynblpb

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1 minute ago, tynblpb said:

Btw, I'm in strike zone too, because I often forget to remove word "idiots" after the words "useless" or "hopeless" addressed to my team.

ewwww u r so toxic!

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3 минуты назад, Atway сказал:

ewwww u r so toxic!

😢😋

The last time these words were used when I've joined the match and my team was leading something like 4810 to 3150 on Moscow. And I was like: Damn, another undeserved win.

10 mins later I was looking at "u lose" screen with 4930-5000. Only map loading timer saved my team and didn't give me any chances to write ALL what I think about them...

And my team wasn't blocked in base. They were capturing CPs, yes. But not the linked ones...

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Wouldn't it be much better for the whole game if you explained to them what to do instead of calling them idiots? :P

Overall, just to clarify, we're not doing anything else here, we've been banning toxic people since the game launched in Early Access, we've just streamlined the process of reporting behaviours to the team, nothing more. Up until now, we've been getting reports via email, on Discord PMs, forum PMs and forum posts, and it's easy to just miss them for a few days, so now we've got a form that you send your stuff to and we have a single spot to check for new reports.

We're not going to ban people for just trash talking, but some people go way overboard with the insults and are making the game worse for it. We're especially targetting TKs as there's no good system to stop them in the game right now (there was, but then we added a server browser, so matchmaking delays are worthless). This is going to change, but for now we have the reporting form.

Nobody gets a permanent ban on their first or even second offense and we're giving out 24/48/72h bans for different things.

For example, if you spend a whole match teamkilling, that's CLEARLY trying to make the game worse for everyone else and being intentionally a dingdong, so that's at least 48h. For calling someone's mother names (or generally just being a dingodng again, but verbally), there's 24 and so on.

With the chat abuse it's really hard to tell sometimes, so we try to stay on the side of not banning, but sometimes it's clear that someone has to chill out for a day.

Let me know if you have more questions about it.

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6 minutes ago, Ragir said:

Wouldn't it be much better for the whole game if you explained to them what to do instead of calling them idiots? :P

oooooh, i bet he did... not even once, but million times. Sometimes its impossible to explain to someone and the only way is to call him idiot :D

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58 minutes ago, Atway said:

oooooh, i bet he did... not even once, but million times. Sometimes its impossible to explain to someone and the only way is to call him idiot

I know, I know, it's mostly a joke :P But you still can call someone an idiot in a funny way, like calling them dingdongs :P

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I mean even if some people have a habit of acting like a troll, whether in chat or otherwise, permabans is not how you want to do this. There should be a much smarter system implemented, with hosts/server admins kicking a player which is up to a vote by the players in the match. You can then ban them for 24/48/72 hours or a week, but why permanent ban.  

 

20 hours ago, tynblpb said:

And if I understood  right what was written on Discord, it wasn't about 1 or 2 words in chat. It's about someone like the guy who last week was for 15mins writing insults in chat. @Ragir, could u plz confirm or deny this 24hrs,week, permanent thing?

Then he should be chat banned, and if he persisted it should be a longer period of bans, but banning the guy from even having access to the game (VAC) bans is a bit much. 

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I don’t like like the idea of being banned for chat reasons maybe a chat ban if possible but not a game ban or the ability to mute people that solves that problem. For tks though I don’t think permanent bans should be a thing but maybe like 48 (hours) 72 (still hours) 3 days  and then max out at a week and maybe it resets after like 1 month of not being banned

Edited by MOBBOB
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6 hours ago, Artaxiad300062 said:

Then he should be chat banned, and if he persisted it should be a longer period of bans, but banning the guy from even having access to the game (VAC) bans is a bit much. 

toxic behavior is not something that you may do accidentally (like TK for example). You do it intentionally. And if you dont understand that its inappropriate even after 3rd temporary ban you should get permanently banned imo

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36 minutes ago, Atway said:

toxic behavior is not something that you may do accidentally (like TK for example). You do it intentionally. And if you dont understand that its inappropriate even after 3rd temporary ban you should get permanently banned imo

Dude, do you know how many players are on NA servers... like 15, and thats on a good day. Now let's say one of those guys has some social disorder, so he acts weird and somebody accidentally TK's him, now he may take that to heart, especially if the the guy killing him just acts up and doesn't apologize, so this guys with social problems starts Tking him for the rest of the match. Fine, he now gets a 24 hour ban, but weeks/months later something similar happens and it escalates, now he's banned again, and this happens until he is permanently banned. The point is, the amount of people that do this is very low, but to permanently get rid of these players is NOT a smart move, even AAA games don't punish their players this strictly! With less than 100 players, this game should NOT be handing out VAC bands to "toxic" players, but only to actually cheaters. This thing will hurt players on the long run. I have seen my fair share of trolls in WW3, but really, there can be smarter ways to drop these guys from the game, rather than taking away their right to play the game. If this happens like what 4 times in a year, once the guy gets a 24hr, then 48hr, then 72hr, and before you know it he has a permanent VAC ban by the end of the year. You can't say that, "Oh, I would never continue to be toxic after I got warning," because you are different from other people. We are not all the same person, some of us have many issues, and to me it is absolutely unnecessary to VAC ban trolls, I'm pretty sure many people will agree with me. Instead, I suggested a vote kick system that has been there since BF3 and maybe even older, where admin/host kicks a certain "toxic" player and it's put up to a vote. If the players in the match are truly tired with the certain player ruining their experience, they would vote to kick him out. This system has worked back then and it will ALWAYS work, and it is a much more fair system than what is currently in place. Chat bans and  multiplayer bans should still be a thing for extreme cases, but not to the point where their steam ID is blocked from accessing the game, even BF doesn't practice this kind of BS.  

Edited by Artaxiad300062
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14 минут назад, Artaxiad300062 сказал:

. If the players in the match are truly tired with the certain player ruining their experience, they would vote to kick him out. This system has worked back then and it will ALWAYS work,

🤣 Majority can't even cooperate to start capturing CPs in the order and u think they'll cooperate to kick player?

It never worked in BF2/2142. MAYBE because there u need 50% of total numbers to vote for kick, which is pretty fair. If it would be 5-10 out of 40, then it can be abused by parties.

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8 minutes ago, Artaxiad300062 said:

even AAA games don't punish their players this strictly!

R6 bans players for toxic behavior (but honestly i dont know is it perma ban or just temporary)

9 minutes ago, Artaxiad300062 said:

Now let's say one of those guys has some social disorder, so he acts weird and somebody accidentally TK's him, now he may take that to heart, especially if the the guy killing him just acts up and doesn't apologize, so this guys with social problems starts Tking him for the rest of the match. Fine, he now gets a 24 hour ban, but weeks/months later something similar happens and it escalates, now he's banned again, and this happens until he is permanently banned

As @tynblpb brilliantly said "he should think about his health and not about playing the game."

21 hours ago, tynblpb said:

IMO, the idea was to give some dude with "bad day" 24-72 hours to cool off or fix the problems with his life. If it didn't help and the same dude will have the same behavior then it will be 1 week. If it didn't help either and man continues to have "bad days" then it means it is chronic and he should think about his health and not about playing the game.

-----

13 minutes ago, Artaxiad300062 said:

With less than 100 players, this game should NOT be handing out VAC bands to "toxic" players

Playerbase is much bigger, dont mess it with "currently playing"

I`ve been playing since 0.2 and met like 2-3 guys, in mental health of which I really doubt, just 2-3 guys who I believe should have been banned. Among all players. Just 2-3. Also you dont even know how many players were banned already (lets say for cheats) - you didnt even notice that

But chat ban is a thing devs should think about, you right.

 

after all, you may agree with me, you may not - they are just our opinions, you have your own, i have my own and respect yours. But anyway its all up to devs.

 

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1 hour ago, tynblpb said:

🤣 Majority can't even cooperate to start capturing CPs in the order and u think they'll cooperate to kick player?

It never worked in BF2/2142. MAYBE because there u need 50% of total numbers to vote for kick, which is pretty fair. If it would be 5-10 out of 40, then it can be abused by parties.

I mean, 10-15 would be fair, that would mean a large portion of the match found you being an inconvenience. This always worked in BF3. 

 

1 hour ago, Atway said:

after all, you may agree with me, you may not - they are just our opinions, you have your own, i have my own and respect yours. But anyway its all up to devs.

 

Fair enough, there is no excuse for cheaters, or even exploiters, but like I said the "bad days" can be enough, but in a years time, even 10 doesn't sound that bad. I just feel like this will hurt average players as well. 

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Wasn't there already issues in the past with players being banned by your previous system (and this, by your own words is just a streamlined version) wrongly, because whoever was elected to review the report wasn't able to understand what was going on due to language barrier? 

Does Farm 51 have any plans of ensuring quality reviews for reports? What are those plans?
Will first language, native English speaking review teams be placed in charge of NA reports? What about EU? China? How is this going to be handled? 
Why was the decision made to add VAC bans to steam accounts for behavior? Does farm 51 believe calling somones mom a fat lard, team killing them and tea-bagging akin to cheating? Tell me exactly how any of those things are similar to installing software that gives you an unfair advantage in game. 
Does F51 believe removing players from their game for toxic messages in chat a better solution than say, removing their ability to chat in game?
Were any alternative options to team killing discussed or considered before implementing a system that bans players for doing so? For example - a very popular modern shooter on the market right now has reflective damage after 2-3 team kills in a match. Surely designing a similar system is better than permanently removing players from your game?
If you don't think it's better, I think the community deserves to know why. Alternatively - if you've got another solution to team killing, I'd like to hear it. 
And I don't think resources or man power are acceptable answers at this point in decision making. You clearly are dedicating resources and man power to the manual review process you've just set up.



For reference material pulled straight from steam support page.

 

How can I ensure I don't get VAC banned?

To ensure your account does not get VAC banned, use only trusted machines to play on VAC-Secured servers. If you are not sure whether or not the machine you are using to connect to Steam may have cheats installed, do not play on VAC-Secured servers.

Use caution when installing any game modifications like scripts or custom skins, and only download custom content from trusted sources. Hackers may maliciously disguise their cheats to cause others to get banned.

For more information on how you can protect yourself and your account, please refer to our Account Security Recommendations FAQ.

Additional information on Valve's policies can be found in our Steam Subscriber Agreement.

Does Farm 51 plan to have steam update their information on VAC bans to include language and in game behavior? 

Edited by @PRUNKgaming

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I don't get it why this is so controversial? Do you think this will lead to a significant number of bans by any means? Following Ragir's description I can't remeber a single incident where someone qualified for a ban for toxic behaviour.

Furthermore, why does F51 have to justify themselves for banning toxic players and not the toxic player for being toxic? Some trash talk for sure has to be considered normal, but we are talking about serious toxicity. Is this something you consider normal?

 

How can I ensure I don't get VAC banned?

In this context the answer cannot be simplier: Behave like an adult and keep your temper in check. If you can't do that you can't blame anyone but yourself for it.

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14 hours ago, HeiligeRobbe said:

I don't get it why this is so controversial? Do you think this will lead to a significant number of bans by any means? Following Ragir's description I can't remeber a single incident where someone qualified for a ban for toxic behaviour.

Furthermore, why does F51 have to justify themselves for banning toxic players and not the toxic player for being toxic? Some trash talk for sure has to be considered normal, but we are talking about serious toxicity. Is this something you consider normal?

 

How can I ensure I don't get VAC banned?

In this context the answer cannot be simplier: Behave like an adult and keep your temper in check. If you can't do that you can't blame anyone but yourself for it.

He's literally said they've banned people for toxic behavior.
You may not recall any times but they've happened. I know of a few myself. 

 

 

11 hours ago, weedtime said:

You're all reading wrong article about VAC

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6899-IOSK-9514

I hadn't seen this article but it still does not justify F51 putting a flag on someone's steam account that is commonly recognized as a brand given to cheaters and hackers, when the offense is toxic behavior.
That's like me telling ragir his feet smell, then calling him a racial slur, then talking about his mom and my punishment being a tattoo on my forehead that says "thief" 

My issues specifically is with the VAC ban

"VAC banned accounts can still play single-player games, local LAN games, and multiplayer on non VAC-secured game servers. To find non VAC-secured servers, from the Steam main menu click on View, select Servers, then select Not secure in the Anti-cheat dropdown"

My point here is that once VAC banned on steam, your ability to play ALL GAMES ON STEAM is impacted. The above quote spells out that once vac banned, your choice when playing multi player games online is to connect to a server that has no protection against cheaters. 

Does toxic behavior in WW3 really seem like something that should impact a players overall steam experience, and damn near force them to play multi player games in lobbies basically set aside for cheaters? 

Again, I repeat myself.  That's like me telling ragir his feet smell, then calling him a racial slur, then talking about his mom and my punishment being a tattoo on my forehead that says "thief"

Toxic behavior is not cheating, hacking or using outside software. Cheating, hacking and using outside software is what VAC bans are for. 

Edited by @PRUNKgaming
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@@PRUNKgaming
Game Ban and VAC Ban are two different things:

image.png

image.png

Game Ban
image.png
VAC Ban
image.png

Game ban in WW3 doesn't affect any other VAC secured Games/Servers...

47 minutes ago, @PRUNKgaming said:

My issues specifically is with the VAC ban

"VAC banned accounts can still play single-player games, local LAN games, and multiplayer on non VAC-secured game servers. To find non VAC-secured servers, from the Steam main menu click on View, select Servers, then select Not secure in the Anti-cheat dropdown"

My point here is that once VAC banned on steam, your ability to play ALL GAMES ON STEAM is impacted. The above quote spells out that once vac banned, your choice when playing multi player games online is to connect to a server that has no protection against cheaters. 

Your ability is not impacted to play any other VAC secured games.

 

@RagirIf I'm wrong and on players profile is visible VAC status, instead of Game Ban, please correct me, but I'm sure I'm right. Otherwise, something is messed up if his account shows the status of VAC Ban.

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6 hours ago, weedtime said:

@@PRUNKgaming
Game Ban and VAC Ban are two different things:

image.png

image.png

Game Ban
image.png
VAC Ban
image.png

Game ban in WW3 doesn't affect any other VAC secured Games/Servers...

Your ability is not impacted to play any other VAC secured games.

 

@RagirIf I'm wrong and on players profile is visible VAC status, instead of Game Ban, please correct me, but I'm sure I'm right. Otherwise, something is messed up if his account shows the status of VAC Ban.

Thanks for clarifying

unknown.png?width=812&height=444

This needs to be clarified as well. 

"We will be applying permanent bans that will show up as VAC bans on the Steam profile"

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Permanent ban should be only for cheaters.

- toxic players in chat should be banned from chat for certain amount of time.

- toxic players who friendlyfire teammates on purpose should get redflag that the damage they should dealt on teammates return to them instead. (If that hard to implement, after killing one teammate with redflag he get kicked of the match immediately)

i wrote this then saw Prunkgaming comment, i think it is the best solution. 

On 1/31/2020 at 10:54 AM, @PRUNKgaming said:

Wasn't there already issues in the past with players being banned by your previous system (and this, by your own words is just a streamlined version) wrongly, because whoever was elected to review the report wasn't able to understand what was going on due to language barrier? 

Does Farm 51 have any plans of ensuring quality reviews for reports? What are those plans?
Will first language, native English speaking review teams be placed in charge of NA reports? What about EU? China? How is this going to be handled? 
Why was the decision made to add VAC bans to steam accounts for behavior? Does farm 51 believe calling somones mom a fat lard, team killing them and tea-bagging akin to cheating? Tell me exactly how any of those things are similar to installing software that gives you an unfair advantage in game. 
Does F51 believe removing players from their game for toxic messages in chat a better solution than say, removing their ability to chat in game?
Were any alternative options to team killing discussed or considered before implementing a system that bans players for doing so? For example - a very popular modern shooter on the market right now has reflective damage after 2-3 team kills in a match. Surely designing a similar system is better than permanently removing players from your game?
If you don't think it's better, I think the community deserves to know why. Alternatively - if you've got another solution to team killing, I'd like to hear it. 
And I don't think resources or man power are acceptable answers at this point in decision making. You clearly are dedicating resources and man power to the manual review process you've just set up.



For reference material pulled straight from steam support page.

 

How can I ensure I don't get VAC banned?

To ensure your account does not get VAC banned, use only trusted machines to play on VAC-Secured servers. If you are not sure whether or not the machine you are using to connect to Steam may have cheats installed, do not play on VAC-Secured servers.

Use caution when installing any game modifications like scripts or custom skins, and only download custom content from trusted sources. Hackers may maliciously disguise their cheats to cause others to get banned.

For more information on how you can protect yourself and your account, please refer to our Account Security Recommendations FAQ.

Additional information on Valve's policies can be found in our Steam Subscriber Agreement.

Does Farm 51 plan to have steam update their information on VAC bans to include language and in game behavior? 

 

 

 

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Why mostly the ppl from NA are those who are against this feature?

What we don't know about them?🤔

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On 2/1/2020 at 7:56 AM, tynblpb said:

Why mostly the ppl from NA are those who are against this feature?

What we don't know about them?🤔

Because it's not a feature that's working properly if it's showing as a VAC ban for toxic behavior.

@weedtimehas the point I made been addressed? I see that you've tagged @Ragiras well asking for clarity and it's radio silence. 

The report very clearly reads that consecutive issues with behavior will result in a ban that appears as VAC on steam profiles.
Am I reading it wrong? 

"We will be applying permanent bans that will show up as VAC bans on the Steam profile"

The whole thing gets even more confusing with the part highlighted in red that says 
THIS FORM IS NOT FOR REPORTING CHEATERS and then it's followed up by saying repeat offenses result in a VAC ban on steam.
I'll say it again
VAC is for players found to be using outside software to cheat.

I am totally okay with F51 issuing game bans although I think aspects of the current system could be improved on.
I believe that issuing VAC bans for behavior is complete BS and abusive.

Seeking clarity on this ASAP and an update to the weekly news if the original post, did in fact, speak wrong. 

Edited by @PRUNKgaming
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Ragir hasn't been online yet, I'm also waiting for clarification... Idk if any other Dev can confirm this besides Ragir.

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