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Cibi

The case for playable Female Soldiers

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I do this more because the discussion around it is infuriating, it's always some tacticool know-it-all that wants to slide into a conversation and spout off bullshit they heard on youtube, or anecdotal evidence, even when they are factually incorrect. The "culture war" against the SJWs doesn't let you discard fact for ideology. Whether or not I get to play as a woman or not (as I would default to) is ultimately irrelevant to my methodology here, and I will play the game even if they are never added, but if the devs have a penchant for realism, then they should know the facts.

Firstly, I want to get the hard facts out of the way.
Nato has many participating states that have integrated female soldiers into their ranks in close combat roles. These nations are:
Australia
Canada
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Israel
New Zealand
Norway
Sweden
Turkey
United Kingdom
United States

Eastern Bloc forces:
Russia
China
North Korea

Honorable mentions: 
India
South Africa


Like it or not, these nations have allowed women to join and participate in combat roles of various description, all including infantry. This is a decent chunk of Nato forces and the would be Eastern Bloc. Regardless of any data or rebuttal you produce in the comments here, this stands true. That even though you may believe these women should not be in these roles, they are, and any woman of any of these nations can and do join, go through basic, and are put into infantry and other combat roles. This is a fact.

Now for simple gameplay reasons. 
Variety and pure customization:

This game as an in depth and fun customization system, down to how you dress up your soldier, and yes, you are essentially playing a little dress up game with your little operator, before you go into a match. Female models add to the variety, different voice actors, vastly different body types. It would allow for more customization choice

Role Play:
This isn't like an RPG role play, its more of a "I have an idea in mind for my character" role play. I had the other day a guy saying he really wanted a Japanese voice so that he could create a Japanese JSDF Nato peacekeeper. We all do this to an extent when we are thinking about customization, and what is actually on the battlefield when we play. The vehicles are a German Tank, a Russian Tank, the weapons are a mixture of common Nato and Eastern Bloc weapons. Even down the the vests and pants you select, are all associated with a certain army in mind. This naturally translates over to how you make your character look. I made mine look as if he was a member of the German KSK.

Cosmetic Microtransactions:
I play Planetside 2, I have spend to much fucking money on that game because I wanted to customize my Vanu girl. I am sure it would as tempting here. I do it for myself, and I am sure other people do too. They see something cool and they really want it for their character. If you are to do micro transactions, I would most likely be tempted to purchase some for a female character, but not so much a male character, as I see it more a means to an end, nothing to identify with at the end of the day.

Player Identification:
I'm a woman, I've seen other women play this game, I've seen trans women interested and playing it as well. While I dislike this methodology when applied to a political situation, this is a fucking game at the end of the day. Some would love to customize a character to which they are the gender, or identify with said gender. It would make them happy.

Edited by Cibi
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Yeah female characters fit the lore well enough, fit the idea of heavy customisation and just allow the game to represent more people. That said, this is an indie studio and adding female characters would mean remaking/heavily altering a ton of assets, so it might just be way too much work unfortunately. It'd be nice to see though.

Edited by Cral
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There's no reason they shouldn't be added into World War 3 (eventually, when Farm51 has development time) to give our female community members a way to better immerse themselves in the game. Whether or not females participate in military in the real world is irrelevant, given this is a videogame.

Edited by Bud
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1 minute ago, Cral said:

Yeah female characters fit the lore well enough, fit the idea of heavy customisation and just allow the game to represent more people. That said this is an indie studio, and adding female characters would mean remaking/heavily altering a ton of assets, so it might just be way too much work unfortunately.

Yes, and I understand that, I'd rather them focus on what is important. Discussion on the discord prompted this post more or less where a select few people there were shooting down any suggestion. I disliked that.

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Just now, Bud said:

There's no reason they shouldn't be added into World War 3 (eventually, when Farm51 has development time) to give our female community members a way to better immerse themselves in the game. Whether or not females participate in military in the real world is irrelevant, given this is a videogame.

Yes, but some would piss and moan about it being unrealistic in the game where I can bring a solid black, hood adorned, cybernetic helmet wearing, Golden 12x scope attached SMG into battle. I was speaking to that angle, plus its nice to have factual backing hehe

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it would  be a nice addition to the game , would add more realism to what is already a awesome game 

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5 minutes ago, Cibi said:

Yes, and I understand that, I'd rather them focus on what is important. Discussion on the discord prompted this post more or less where a select few people there were shooting down any suggestion. I disliked that.

Yeah everywhere I see Battlefield/WW3 discussed I see people complaining about women in Battlefield V. They don't have much of an argument for this game though!

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As long as they want to and not forced go ahead.  if people ask and they refuse then that's their choice.

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I'm worried that women hitbox will affect the gameplay, when there's already some cosmetic changes that affects men's visibility on body. If they add it to game, then they can't make women thinner than men.

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Just now, Yuzuri said:

I'm worried that women hitbox will affect the gameplay, when there's already some cosmetic changes that affects men's visibility on body. If they add it to game, then they can't make women thinner than men.

I am not sure this is that big of an issue, there have been plenty of games with different hitboxes in multiplayer. The head and lower torso are the big hitboxes in this game with arm and body shots being discouraged. We could even say women might be at a disadvantage because of their wider hips, but I won't say that.

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2 minutes ago, Cibi said:

I am not sure this is that big of an issue, there have been plenty of games with different hitboxes in multiplayer. The head and lower torso are the big hitboxes in this game with arm and body shots being discouraged. We could even say women might be at a disadvantage because of their wider hips, but I won't say that.

However with all that gear on I don't see a difference so I say why not add them in.

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1 minute ago, Cibi said:

I am not sure this is that big of an issue, there have been plenty of games with different hitboxes in multiplayer. The head and lower torso are the big hitboxes in this game with arm and body shots being discouraged. We could even say women might be at a disadvantage because of their wider hips, but I won't say that.

I've been from game like AVA, and veteran players used female characters to have advantage on sniper battles and dodging. Making different character in game will change hitboxes, and it will have two different infantry hitbox.

Though, I didn't see infantry have gender; I just see them as neutral. Strong women or men.

Maybe add voices and faces when you change the gender. Body model can come later.

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1 minute ago, Yuzuri said:

I've been from game like AVA, and veteran players used female characters to have advantage on sniper battles and dodging. Making different character in game will change hitboxes, and it will have two different infantry hitbox.

Though, I didn't see infantry have gender; I just see them as neutral. Strong women or men.

Maybe add voices and faces when you change the gender. Body model can come later.

Huh, didn't know it was like that in AVA. 

Anywhoo, just keep the hitboxes the same then. I don't think the player base is that much of a degenerate to whine about if that becomes the case.

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2 minutes ago, Yuzuri said:

I've been from game like AVA, and veteran players used female characters to have advantage on sniper battles and dodging. Making different character in game will change hitboxes, and it will have two different infantry hitbox.

Though, I didn't see infantry have gender; I just see them as neutral. Strong women or men.

Maybe add voices and faces when you change the gender. Body model can come later.

Well, Kinkysumo brings up a good point here, and I would like to supplement this with saying that AVA has very different ideas about character design than this game. It's choosing to take a realism approach, so I am sure the female character would be wearing similar gear to the male, nullifying most of the concerns you may have. AVA designs seem to be made to be sexually enticing, so hey play up the curvature of the body, and reduce the amount of gear they should be carrying to make war.

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Your "factual backing" goes out the window when you realize that while on paper those armies allow females into combat, it's the men doing all the fighting.

"I'm a womyn hear me roar" fantasies don't work in real life as well as they work in games, or on the internet. A woman simply cannot carry 30kg of gear as well as a man can. It's a cold, hard, biological fact. No sane leader would send off women to the frontline in case of an actual world war - unless they were extremely desperate, something that's not shown to be true in WW3, atleast as of now. We do not see cities reduced to nothing to rubble, we do not see mass graves, we have no reason to believe there's a shortage of able-bodied men or that Geneva convention has been thrown out of the window and now all that matters is that you have minimum of 1 arm and a trigger finger to participate in humanity's favorite pasttime.

And my argument against introducing female characters into the game from gameplay viewpoint is that females are smaller, so they have smaller hitboxes - opening a whole crate of stinky cheese for neckbearded tryhards.

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12 minutes ago, Icarus said:

Your "factual backing" goes out the window when you realize that while on paper those armies allow females into combat, it's the men doing all the fighting.

"I'm a womyn hear me roar" fantasies don't work in real life as well as they work in games, or on the internet. A woman simply cannot carry 30kg of gear as well as a man can. It's a cold, hard, biological fact. No sane leader would send off women to the frontline in case of an actual world war - unless they were extremely desperate, something that's not shown to be true in WW3, atleast as of now. We do not see cities reduced to nothing to rubble, we do not see mass graves, we have no reason to believe there's a shortage of able-bodied men or that Geneva convention has been thrown out of the window and now all that matters is that you have minimum of 1 arm and a trigger finger to participate in humanity's favorite pasttime.

And my argument against introducing female characters into the game from gameplay viewpoint is that females are smaller, so they have smaller hitboxes - opening a whole crate of stinky cheese for neckbearded tryhards.

It doesn't go out of any window, because these nations in fact allow women into combat roles, that simple. Now, I don't know what you are backing your argument with, personal experience? Anecdotal. Moral/social views? Personal opinion.

I will concede the gameplay bit perhaps, but I am unsure on really how much of an effect this will really have, so I can't say for certain.

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15 minutes ago, Cibi said:

It doesn't go out of any window, because these nations in fact allow women into combat roles, that simple. Now, I don't know what you are backing your argument with, personal experience? Anecdotal.

Well it's actually backed by historical knowledge because USSR didn't exactly send women off to frontlines to fight along men either. Women there were mostly snipers, which while not safest role to be in, it's definitely safer than being in the thick of the fight with the men. Night Witches were also famous but that was a bomber regiment, not exactly running around with rifles on the front line either.

Nazi Germany didn't allow women into combat until very, very late 1945 where soviets were knocking on Reichstag's door at which point Hitler desperately tried covering his ass anyway - exactly what I mentioned in my last post.

Also while not exactly a good source and it's only one example (since I really don't feel like digging out actual evidence to win an internet argument, got better things to do): women in IDF don't do particularly much.

A woman's role is mostly in war industry and post war, something people conveniently forget while trying to hamfist women into possibly humanity's ugliest business full of death and misery, all for sake of 'equality'.

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3 hours ago, Cibi said:

Cosmetic Microtransactions:
I play Planetside 2, I have spend to much fucking money on that game because I wanted to customize my Vanu girl. I am sure it would as tempting here. I do it for myself, and I am sure other people do too. They see something cool and they really want it for their character. If you are to do micro transactions, I would most likely be tempted to purchase some for a female character, but not so much a male character, as I see it more a means to an end, nothing to identify with at the end of the day.

Enough said.... You are part of the Problem.

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The hitbox issue isn't really an issue, in PUBG both genders have the same hitbox and I believe the same is true of Fortnite. There's arguably a slight advantage to having the slimmer female character from a visual perspective, but then in a game like WW3 where everyone is wearing armor that issue wouldn't really exist.

 

Whether or not women fought on the frontlines in the 1940's isn't all that relevant to a game set in the future either.

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Just now, Cral said:

Whether or not women fought on the frontlines in the 1940's isn't all that relevant to a game set in the future either. 

I disagree because you might as well claim "oh well in the future they'll fight by throwing cheese at eachother, I don't need to reason my claim - it's irrelevent what wars were fought with before!" and it works exactly the same.

And PUBG is not a good game or well designed game so I don't see why this should be even brought up in an argument.

3 minutes ago, Gr155am said:

OP's entire quoted post and *snip*

Jesus man, I only skimmed over his post.

We really do not need your girls wearing skintight clothes fetish in this game, OP. Realistically, women have no place in combat except in countries really desperate for manpower.

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Don't see the issue with this.  Like the op already said, woman have combat roles in the military now.  This is only an issue for me when it's SJW ram-rodded down my throat.  This is not one of those cases.  It fits.

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2 minutes ago, Icarus said:

I disagree because you might as well claim "oh well in the future they'll fight by throwing cheese at eachother, I don't need to reason my claim - it's irrelevent what wars were fought with before!" and it works exactly the same.

And PUBG is not a good game or well designed game so I don't see why this should be even brought up in an argument.

Jesus man, I only skimmed over his post.

We really do not need your girls wearing skintight clothes fetish in this game, OP. Realistically, women have no place in combat except in countries really desperate for manpower.

70+ years of women gradually earning more rights and filling a wider range of roles in society suggests that women could be a common sight in any wars of the future.

PUBG has sold millions, has a huge playerbase and is a ton of fun. More importantly, it's also a game where you regularly see players picking genders based purely on appearance rather than because one gives any particular advantage over the other, which suggests it's pretty relevant.

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1 minute ago, Cral said:

70+ years of women gradually earning more rights and filling a wider range of roles in society suggests that women could be a common sight in any wars of the future.

PUBG has sold millions, has a huge playerbase and is a ton of fun. More importantly, it's also a game where you regularly see players picking genders based purely on appearance rather than because one gives any particular advantage over the other, which suggests it's pretty relevant.

There's a really long winded argument that would get a lot of people upset so I'll skip that and just say this:

Can women feasibly pick up a rifle and roleplay a male soldier? Yes.

Can they do it better than said male soldier? No.

Is it sane to send them to frontlines, where they will almost certainly be killed due to underperforming and then ruin your country's demographics and industry post-war, for sake of equality? Do I really need to answer this one?

The Art of War is still relevent today because it focuses much less on war itself, it rather focuses on the human psyche. Surprise surprise - human psyche is still the same after hundreds of years. There's no reason to believe that in mere 10~ years from now, women would be content with being drafted and sent off into the meatgrinder nor that any man would actually stand for that.

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Yea, as much as I like to, engaging on the realism front is ultimately pointless, this isn't a perfect milsim to begin with, this is a game, and it has gamey features like the customization. A female character would add to that. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Gr155am said:

Enough said.... You are part of the Problem.

Eh, you say that, but I just like nice looking things and I am willing to pay for the effort. I've been a part of my share of consumer revolts, but this is something I just don't feel so strongly

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