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Cibi

The case for playable Female Soldiers

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It's not JUST realism, it's authenticity as well. You can disagree with me how authentic this game should be, but you can't deny that women in frontline combat roles just aren't very authentic to begin with. I'm certain throughout the game's development I'll be a huge proponent of realism and authenticity, but not if gameplay will take a hit. This is not one of those issues where gameplay will suffer, quite the opposite actually. It just drains resources and presents balance issues. I would be perfectly fine with hearing female voice on radio in roles like pilot. Think something like "[Codename] to JTAC, going weapons hot." in female voice - I'd be fine with that. But women running around with 30kg of gear at exact same speed, intensity and general performance as men? Yeah, nah.

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5 minutes ago, Icarus said:

Can women feasibly pick up a rifle and roleplay a male soldier? Yes.

Can they do it better than said male soldier? No.

Is it sane to send them to frontlines, where they will almost certainly be killed due to underperforming and then ruin your country's demographics and industry post-war, for sake of equality? Do I really need to answer this one?

The Art of War is still relevent today because it focuses much less on war itself, it rather focuses on the human psyche. Surprise surprise - human psyche is still the same after hundreds of years. There's no reason to believe that in mere 10~ years from now, women would be content with being drafted and sent off into the meatgrinder nor that any man would actually stand for that.

Your sentiment was shared by military generals when these discussions came up not too long ago.  Against their wishes, all combat roles were opened up to woman as of 2015 (US military).

I agree with you that psychologically, seeing woman killed in battle would mess with men's heads.  That being said, the woman that have been successful in the military (and in actual firefights) are not your little sister.  

I can't see woman ever being drafted... for many reasons

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Lordy, this tired debate again...

I'll say what I've said 100 times regarding this topic: I don't care as long as it's not pandering. In my eyes, whether it's a man or a woman doesn't change anything. It's just another character model to shoot at. Plus, it's a fictional war, it doesn't have to strictly be rooted in realism.

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I have no problem with female characters in any game and I feel rather sorry for those that do. That being said, from a marketing perspective I would strongly suggest to not include female player models in WW3 any time soon. I don't think Farm 51 should risk a Battlefied V like shit storm. Definitely not with their first release and before it's even clear what kind of community the game will attract.

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1 hour ago, Quadsword said:

Lordy, this tired debate again...

I'll say what I've said 100 times regarding this topic: I don't care as long as it's not pandering. In my eyes, whether it's a man or a woman doesn't change anything. It's just another character model to shoot at. Plus, it's a fictional war, it doesn't have to strictly be rooted in realism.

not until they make it so you cant shoot female soldiers/minorities in video games because that would be sexist/ racist 

Edited by MagaTrump
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1 hour ago, Cibi said:

engaging on the realism front is ultimately pointless

You felt you lose your argument, on which by the way you based your whole thread on, (started by presenting all the nations of NATO who have female warriors, their roles etc) then you ditched it and saying "engaging on realism is pointless, this is a game bla bla" .. Classic. 

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58 minutes ago, Icarus said:

There's a really long winded argument that would get a lot of people upset so I'll skip that and just say this:

Can women feasibly pick up a rifle and roleplay a male soldier? Yes.

Can they do it better than said male soldier? No.

Is it sane to send them to frontlines, where they will almost certainly be killed due to underperforming and then ruin your country's demographics and industry post-war, for sake of equality? Do I really need to answer this one?

The Art of War is still relevent today because it focuses much less on war itself, it rather focuses on the human psyche. Surprise surprise - human psyche is still the same after hundreds of years. There's no reason to believe that in mere 10~ years from now, women would be content with being drafted and sent off into the meatgrinder nor that any man would actually stand for that.

Reason I love WW3 is the realism..  Plain and simple.  I've played every BF title since 1942 (where in that game the realism / historical accuracy made it fun and enjoyable), and then BFV came out.  The truth of that game is this:  My grandmother didn't storm the beaches of Normandy with a prosthetic arm. 

But my grandfather did, and my dad served in WW2 on an aircraft carrier.  I myself did two tours in Vietnam.  I include these things because I never saw a woman on the front lines, nor did my dad or grandfather.  Contrary to what you may have heard, there were NO women serving in a combat role in either WW1 or WW2.  Yes there were a few women...  But they were behind the scenes in a supportive role. 

Now we have World War 3...  Obviously set in the future, but the truth again is just exactly like @Icarus said..  IMO there's no way women would ever make it on a Seals or Delta team, or the front lines, or any other combat rich environment because they're not physically suited for this.  And frankly, men don't feel safe working with women when their lives (and the team's lives) depend on it.  Just the slightest bit of insecurity can totally f*** up a mission and everybody dies.  That's the real world, whether you like it or not.

Of course.. This is a video game right ?  Set in the future, not in the past.   But tomorrow's wars are based on today's realism.   Seriously, if today's women cry foul when a man even so much as suggests she's beautiful, then how the hell are they going to handle real bullets flying at them ? 

Now...  Here's where the DEVS need to pay attention.  I was invited to play Test Phases 2 thru 7 and enjoyed every second of it.  WW3 is rock solid.  Ahead of it's time.  Right now it's the one anomaly that can go the distance.  Seriously, you guys can make a LOT of money (and to the SJW's that think making a lot of money is a bad thing -> if you work your a** off producing something you deserve to be rewarded).  However if you give in to these SJW's, and stick a woman in this game, then you're going to suffer the same fate as did EA with BFV. 

Now...............  This is my opinion; nothing more.  But in a world where ppl are no longer entitled to their own opinion when it differs from Political Correctness, please feel free to flame me at will. 

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Its a game so I'm not not too against it but people have some wrong assumptions about females in combat

 

The reasons I am against it is because mainly the fairness of having a smaller or see ably smaller hitbox. A smaller target visually or physically is harder to hit. The argument females in fps games goes back to when females weren't in the military and no one was saying do it because the IRL but because of the mechanical aspects of the game it effects to have a different character model.

If there are females in game I dont want to see some butch mainly looking thing to match the male model for fairness.

 

I personally will probably play a female but it does hurt my belief in the game and the cool bad assery factor I feel for the game. Some people might find it bad ass but I think that it will take away the sense of the brutal beastly sense in war.

 

For those who want female F51 has said before that they arent doing female becasue of the amount of work that would go into creating a different model but some have expressed that they were OK with it and would want to do it.

 

For the micro-transactions reason to include it you have to understand that you are saying add a game altering feature so they can sell us more stuff. I know they need to make money in order to have continual development of the game but cosmetic micro transactions do negatively effect the game and the relationship/interactions of the company and the players.

These guys are gamers and probably burned as much as we are by shity companies that call us gamers, consumers and not players. Micro trans brings negatives that have to weight against the positives of continual and better support for this game. Micro-trans brings in revenue afterwards and allows for free updates but it doesn't not always and usually doesn't equate to the level of support/content you get in return. These guys might tip the scales towards us more since they are also players and have more control over the company but at the end of the day they are a company with investors.

 

---Now for IRL aspects, that i dont really care for being a factor on deciding rather females should be in game but people keep bringing up that women are in the military so they should be in this game.---

 

The only military that have women in their ranks for combat roles have lower standards or have lowered the standards because they dont have enough manpower to be combat effective as units. The standard applies to men and women as not all men can meet the standards before but only a very few women can meet and I say "Meet" standards of some high standard units. The standard is a standard its consider minimum requirement you should be doing better then that.

Some country's like Israel need a larger security force and I say again "Security Force". They need a large force to occupy their state for safety  so they conscript women who can effectively guard and provide security against insurgents while providing a deterrent to conventional forces. They arent a offensive force.

The Kurds use women as well but keep a lot of them sheltered as they offer a huge political boost (they do the same for foreign men who join their ranks). Islamic jihadist believe that if they are killed by a women then they will not go to heaven so it also provides a psychological fear to the enemy for the Kurds. The Kurds split their women mainly into segregated battalions and have them mainly for defensive positions. The Kurds also have man power problems as to why they include women.

 

Women can fight but they cant do it as well as men on a leading average, this is cold hard truth. We are a sexually dimorphic species with huge muscular, mental, and skeletal differences.

Some militarizes have a high standard in order to have a better force putting substandard soldiers does hold the rest of the troops back and put them in more danger. There are a minority of women can cut it in infantry but its is not cost or time effective to screen for them.

 

Females are a huge human resource to pull from and doing so for a lot of military's frees up able body men for infantry and combat roles as they can have a female do the same job and a non combat role man can.

 

The marines had done a very good and fair test Which I saw part of it as I supported them while they were at bridge port.

The Marines are now forced politically to accept women so in return they just raised the standard overall and even before women couldn't complete the infantry officer course for the marines and only one- a hand full have completed the course. The marines has gotten their first female grunt this year and so far only two have made it though to the infantry units.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2015/09/07/grunt-life-marines-dish-on-the-corps-women-in-combat-experiment/

 

 

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Let's not get too personal. She's just suggesting she wants to see women in this game. Dev can implement it without changing hitboxs.

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Why is this even an issue?  There's a million things in this game that need added/improved/fixed, but hey, let's bring up some shit that doesn't matter so that a very, VERY small percentage of the player base can feel all warm and fuzzy about being able to play as a woman.  If you really want that, how about making the female characters slower and weaker (just like in real life)?  Simple biology right there.  Personally, I don't care what gender my character is, but with all the REAL issues this game is having, female characters shouldn't be something anyone is worried about.  

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56 minutes ago, Yuzuri said:

Let's not get too personal. She's just suggesting she wants to see women in this game. Dev can implement it without changing hitboxs.

If you make a female you would want it to look like a female and not a male right? Even if the hit box would be the same which it will probably be, to make it look like a female you would make it thinner at the very least and even then it would look off from what a female would look like.

For it to be a good female model it would be smaller and thinner with different dimensions as we are sexually dimorphic and have different dimensions relative to our bodies between men and women ranging from the fingers, arms, legs, feet, stomach, hips and various other bones.

A female model will be a little off and mannly looking if you matched the models to the same hit box. even then the make the female look proper it will be smaller in some areas at least visually and that would make it a harder target. Also their will be inconsistency with  hitting the hitbox and not the model visually.

 

Its not personal. But people should know what is correct and not think that there assumptions must be correct about females in the military since they mostly ate up the politics surrounding it.

Like With BFV and historical accuracy, or vikings and horned helmets ect... People say oh people know they its not real, then they say something that is factually incorrect in the context they just downplayed.

 

Outside of gameplay which is my biggest concern is how it will make the game feel. It will be off and a bit jarring to see women while messing up the setting but I'm more about gameplay.

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Smhn. I know that there are female issues with battlefield V and overall gaming (insurgency sandstorm). But it's a suggestion. It just feels like suddenly people bring up gender and attack it when it felt like the discussion was about to end it.

I know that devs have priority on server issue right now. I did not bring up optimization, objective mode balance, weapon balance, vehicle domination, and player motion because it's at other thread. I'm sure devs have lists to fix, and listen to player feedback since day 1. Let's just leave the thread as suggestion, not as gender correction.

Also, it was mentioned in the thread that it's up to dev to decide it. If people say yes but dev say no then she will not say anymore and thread will be known as rejected.

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14 hours ago, Cral said:

Yeah female characters fit the lore well enough, fit the idea of heavy customisation and just allow the game to represent more people. That said, this is an indie studio and adding female characters would mean remaking/heavily altering a ton of assets, so it might just be way too much work unfortunately. It'd be nice to see though.

From the official Q&A:

Q: Will female soldiers be an option?
A: We'd love to have female soldiers on the frontlines from day one but there are other priorities before early access release (optimization, net-code) so we'd probably introduce then during early access.

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For me, it's very simple: Identity politics do not belong into video games, or any other form of entertainment for that matter. Whatever it touches tends to abruptly start rotting and then dies very soon afterwards.

That being said, the OP request is reasonable. While these days, we still don't have any significant portion of female front line infantry, there are at least some. And since WW3 is fictional conflict set in close future, introduction of female soldiers would not interfere with the setting in any way. If it made some players happy and enjoy the game more, then I am all for it. In fact, I believe that most of the people would still choose their character to be male, with only few exceptions opting for female characters, which could actually turn out quite realistic in terms women to men proportion.

Bottom line is, I would very much like Farm51 to spend development time on more pressing issues than introducing fame soldiers, but once core gameplay is fleshed out, I would not be against it at all. It always comes down if it pays off though. If it would be a feature which would turn the time artists and programmers spent on it into more sales. That one, I am not completely sure about. :)

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Logistically speaking, adding female characters is a massive and unnecessary added expense for a studio this size, especially given the context of this game. All apparel would have to be modeled twice, animations would have to captured/created/rigged twice, twice as many voice actors would have to be paid, etc. This is time and money that I believe would be better spent on adding meaningful content for everyone, like maps, equipment, vehicles, or improving the game's health.

Contextually speaking, there isn't really a need to add female fighters anyways. Women are allowed to fill combat roles in some of the world's largest armies, but do they? The numbers we have vary, but the ultimate consensus of all the information we have is that they fill an minuscule percentage of grunt positions, especially so once you begin to look at the echelons of a country's military that are held to a higher standard than their regular ground forces such as the USMC or Spetznaz.

 A woman's proportions are significantly different than a man's, obviously. This is only accentuated once you compare subjects within an extensive PT regimen. They're shorter, their arms are smaller, their legs are smaller, their waistlines are slimmer, their necks are smaller, their shoulders are MUCH narrower, their faces are narrower, their hands and feet are smaller, and their bust and hip measurements are usually smaller, too. There's no way you can use a 120lb female's body to fill a 180lb male's hitboxes without ending up with a bunch of empty space or just making the female models look like butch Amazonians on gear.

Edited by Sgt.Bad-Touch

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As long as they made it moderately realistic for weight to scale ratio. Sure why not. Let's slap 100+ lbs of gear on a 130 lb female and see what happens. LOL all kidding aside I do not think anyone gives a s**t honestly. The culture war is so prevalent at this point you cannot step left or right without stepping onto a metaphorical social IED. Personally, posts like this are great, but realistically let's focus on the more important things before we talk about the social culture war. I just want a fun game first and foremost, and honestly, anyone looking for fun elements will be immersed in a well-made game. Ergo Witcher series, and a laundry list of games that have captivated gamers, for a multitude of generations, before, O....M.....G.... do I get to represent my gender!? 

 

Also, fact, not very many female's pass the combat role MOS' or job cert's in the military due to a multitude of factors mainly based on safety and physical performance. Not sexist misogynist overtones. So by all means if we are going to be realistic let's do this, but if we are going to water this down, for "Muh Culture War' or anything else that would detract from a well-made game and realism IMHO. I recommend steering clear of it frankly. For the aforementioned. 

 

Also here is a link, this first female Ranger, was the first to pass, though I promise  Dozens of classes failed. 

 

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2017/01/18/this-woman-will-be-the-first-to-join-the-army-s-elite-75th-ranger-regiment/

Jordan Peterson.jpg

Edited by Valfather

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I approve. Also slap weight limit to light-medium, for consistency ?

 

 

Honestly, lefties these days...

Edited by Marrond
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No, stop ruining games because you want it a "particular" way, go back to battlefield 5 if you want crippled womyn on the battlefield.

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On 10/26/2018 at 8:28 PM, Cibi said:

Firstly, I want to get the hard facts out of the way.
Nato has many participating states that have integrated female soldiers into their ranks in close combat roles. These nations are:
Australia
Canada
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Israel
New Zealand
Norway
Sweden
Turkey
United Kingdom
United States

Finland, Israel, New Zealand and Sweden are not NATO-member states. Of course, since this is a game set 10-20 years in the future, things could and will obviously change in that time - although New Zealand definitely will not join NATO and I doubt Israel will be allowed either as neither of them are on the North Atlantic coast.

 

Similarly, while I cannot comment on the practices of the other nations there, I can say from firsthand experience that Finland (for the most part) does not allow women into frontline combat roles, for ex: infantry, engineers, armor. The Finnish Defence Force is still primarily a conscript force with women being given the option to volunteer for service. However, as there's no pre-service physical fitness testing in place (neither for women or men), the majority of women are placed into non-combat roles, for ex. logistics, signals, military police. This is done because on average, the volunteers are in worse shape than the frontline roles would require - the same does apply to many conscripted men, but they can be more quickly trained to the required physical condition. The only exception to this is some units that require you to pass testing for your physical and mental capabilities before your service, for ex. airborne, border guards, navy combat divers and international quick reaction forces, but women are in the definite minority in those units.

 

I really have no dog in this fight, this isn't ARMA but nor is it BF, so if the devs choose to implement female soldiers I expect them to make it look authentic and believable. I've no problem with having female soldiers in the game, as it would be far more believable here than it is in another, rather infamous title. I just wanted to point out the misconceptions regarding FDF in the original post as I served my conscription time as a tank commander in a mechanized infantry platoon in a jaeger battalion, and there was not a single woman in the unit.

Edited by UltimateIdiot
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