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Valaska

Veper 12 & Tor

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... I have, no idea how anyone would ever come to the decision either of these were a good idea to implement in the fashion they did especially when they seem to be talking about nerfing all AR's... jeez.

 

Vepe 12

This is a shotgun that literally outdamages rifles at 60-70 meters, often causing one shot kills at these ranges and frustrating the every living hell out of players all over from every server. If you did a weapon poll I am betting that the Veper and Tor would no doubt be the most used guns because they are cheesy, cheesy and just overpowered to the extreme. The Veper 12 has a very easy fix, increase the spread at 20-30 meters to the projectiles so you aren't firing a man-sized grouping at 60 meters. This thing fires as fast as you can pull the trigger and out damages AR's, being former service I can tell you that this weapon is just bullshit in its current form even in real life performance.

If we're going to assume that plates can actually stop a 7.62mm round (very unlikely btw, you're lucky if it doesn't just travel through and helmets provide almost zero bullet protection) then the 12 gauge that the veper 12 is firing should have almost zero chance at penetration at these ranges or even getting through kevlar past fifty meters because that's very close to how ineffective it is against any form of armour. But even in a game balance and design direction, this thing makes no sense. I don't see how Farm 51 feels AR's need a nerf while this thing is quite literally the worst balanced gun I've seen in a game to-date and that's including BF3/4 shotguns that could be snipers at 400 meters with a slug.

 

Tor

I understand you guys went to ranges and had consultants from the military? I am going to ask you... who the &%#@ told you that they could fire a .50 caliber rifle on the move without throwing your shoulder out is a complete shitter. If you want someone who won't bullshit you I know about a dozen guys looking for military consultation work on these kinds of projects including one with heavy experience working with TV and other media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gyjo5BObCPE

Being able to HIT something with one of these while standing is a feat on its own, do you not realize you are literally lugging around damn near 22 kilograms (though the Tor looks like it might be lighter which will be WORSE for recoil) which is NOT something any normal human being could ever do even standing still to fire these things, again, is a feat on its own if you hit something. But moving could literally throw your shoulder out. There's a reason this guy is done after two shots, having fired a .50 cal properly I can tell you, you feel each shot.

If someone is moving with a TOR, this thing should be swaying like a mother, if they are STANDING, it should be swaying like a mother, and bolting this thing should take having to crouch, put the rifle down, and then bolt it. I don't care how much of a badass the guy who told you guys this was possible thinks he is, no one is bolting this rifle without dropping its muzzle down or more likely dropping the whole rifle out of his hands and likely damaging it.

 

Also, why in the hell is a .50 cal damaging LAV's!? I saw two teamates with TOR's take out an IFV in only 10 shots... you know how many shots a .50 cal should take to actually disable a LAV? It should NOT be possible, not from a realism standpoint or even a gameplay standpoint... knock our their optics, that's cool and realistic, whack out components mounted to it? Oh heck yeah that's really nifty from balance and realism! But you have basically made the TOR into a Railgun with zero recoil and no consequences to using it over top of ANY other sniper rifle. It invalidates the G29 etc... this thing is ridiculous and being former service actually turned game developer... this thing, and the Veper-12, make zero sense in either aspect. These two things are just horrificly "balanced" if you can even call it that, and don't hit on the "semi realistic" gameplay you are trying to create either.

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looks like you are debunked

 

You dont sway that much its only 30 pounds, that dude you showed sucked at shooting his posture was all wrong.

 

Its designed to take out lavs

 

You normally dont takethe riflke out of the shoulder when you bolt. BF isn't real life either. Their mechanic of making you unshoulder to rebolt was a skill nerf mechanic not a realism one.

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Oh common, did you really just use J. Miculek as an example of what average people should be able to do?

Really?

Honestly, did you feel even the least bit greasy when you did that, or did you just do a quick google search not knowing WHO you actually were posting?

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35 minutes ago, TZoningHard said:

just showing its possible and how over exaggerating you larpers are.

I've actually handled that same rifle and did my years in, how bout you? As said, the average person or even soldier are not going to be hitting crap all swinging that weight around or the recoil of it, especially not on the move. An exception proves the rule, my friend. I can bring up a few dozen videos right now of trained marines, army, CAF, etc all jokingly firing the .50 at a standing position and not hitting crap because of the unrealistic expectation of anyone outside of roid rage actually being able to handle this thing. 

It just sounds like you want to continue using one of the worst designed weapons in terms of game design, and one of the most unrealistically handled .50 cals in a game I've ever seen. The man in that video is a well-known beast of men beyond the par of any average soldier.

Edited by Valaska
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I mostly agree with the sentiments, other than the "assume that plates can actually stop a 7.62mm round"  bit, ALL NIJ level 3 ballistic plates go through testing to ensure they can take at least a single FMJ 7.62x51mm NATO round, and NIJ level 4 plates are rated for 7.62x51mm NATO armor piercing rounds.  

Here's a level 3 Plate taking multiple M80 ball rounds:



As for .50 cal rifles, there are lighter and more easily recoil managed examples IRL than the TOR, (though by no means should they be punching through tanks.)  Like the 11kg GM6 Lynx.  

 

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1 hour ago, TZoningHard said:

just showing its possible and how over exaggerating you larpers are.

That does not add anything to the conversation, feats like that require immense preparation, it's a sport that has nothing to do with combat application. Don't pull the realism card only when it suits you, you know very well that something like that wouldn't be possible when you've been carrying that gun on your person for a couple of hours straight. Not to mention running with it...or sprinting.
I've seen a video of a man dual wielding AA-12s and shooting a cluster of soda bottles. Does that mean we should be able to dual wield Veprs? No.

Anti-Material rifles are not only expensive but used very narrowly, for very specific purposes due to their obnoxious size and weight. This is not, and will not ever be a case in-game. Virtually anyone can select that weapon and replace their primary and secondary with it. In that context, its an overpowered piece of kit that trivializes the remaining choices. And that shouldn't be the case.

Personally, I think the best solution would be to break TOR, and all future high-caliber rifles, into a category of their own, called Anti-Material Rifles. Those would come with additional weight penalty when holding, reduced mobility as well as hindered ability to lean. have a reduced ammo pool (to 2-3 mags total), long bolting animation and feature a very strong recoil impulse if not fired from prone (and in the future all other bipod positions) that makes you reacquire your sight picture.
On the plus side, they would also feature a very high penetration value, allowing them to ignore all of the player worn armor, meaning your shots are loud and far in between but if you land them properly, it's a guaranteed kill. The AP extra ammo type would be the only one doing damage to armored vehicles, serving as a good poke damage from the distance, but shouldn't be a better solution than an RPG like it is now.

All of that would make Anti-Material rifles into the kind of weapons you pair up with an SMG or a lightweight AR, so you can get into a good position, entrench yourself and get some guaranteed kills/damage on a vehicle before moving again. Greatly rewarding aim but penalizing mobility, Glass cannon type of deal.

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"Cant stand and shoot with TOR" See all these rando people on youtube shooting the gun with ease not just this dude.

Trying to overexaggerate things. The TOR is a Bolter not a semi auto Barret you arent dealing with recoil messing with your aim.

Muh sway,  I dont see any. I'm pretty sure its just you. You act like military are average people. The average person could barely run a mile or ruck a pack. You think people dont have to run or carry this rifle around? People a "running and gunning" with 240b which weight very similar load to a TOR and it has recoil that effects its aiming.

I also dont see any realism complaint about LMGs not having this mystical sway.

Also you think that adding sway will stop people from quick scoping you. quickscoping gets around sway.

oh look some videos of people shooting barrets with out blowing their shoulder out, and hitting their targets and being trained in the military to shooting standing wow.

Dont try to add BS into the game and call it realism. I dont see people complaining about about not being turned to ping mist, its more like you just dont want a good bolter in game because you get sniped all the time.

The Bolters are getting buffed around the board and the other two will be as strong as the TOR is not which will be 20 points stronger. The TOR isn't even as strong as it should be if its supposed to represent a .50. The only thing .50 cal about it is the name and a weight value because having a oneshot bolter would be bad balance. That's why they are making mechanics for it to be diffrent.

I dont care about if the TOR is nerfed because the other bolter will become viable. When the other bolters are buffed to be near where the TOR is now, I bet we will hear the same BS about "muh realism".

Its like hearing people call squads recoil realism when its purposefully made to unwilldy instead of a accurate representation of real life because they wanted to hinder people killing other players.

 

If you are swaying its becasue you are weak, and or a bad shot. You dont have to hold the rifle up there all the time. If you are having to take more then 5 sec to shoot a target under 200m from the standing ready then you are bad.

 

Again I dont care if TOR gets changed as long as there is a viable selection of Bolters to use which prebuff their isn't. But dont try to say its realism and use realism to balance game mechanics especially when what you are saying is real is BS.

 

The Vepr is too strong and their is no reason to use any other shotguns. needs to be brought down in some way.

 

 

Edited by TZoningHard
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yeah tor and VEPR need to be narfed or so. They are too powerfull ATM and most of the people play them.

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But i must say .50 cal (even AP) shouldn't be able to penetrate APCs(front) IFV(front/sides) and tanks (all around). Those rifles would be used to knock out optics additional armament, reactive armor and APSes not vehicle it self.

Also

TOR spam is real right now, especially on Warsaw map. I think TOR should be consider to be "pick up weapon" and cost BP also get slight buff.

Edited by Marg
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valaska is correct. this is me with tor and i bet all "internet experts" to try 1x1m target at 100m while standing. bonus points after one minute sprint with it + rpg in backpack.

with full gear? its hard to aim when sitting and impossibile when standing. posting miciulek videos as "proof" of otherwise is pure shithead stupidity - miciulek is 100% alien gun lizard and cant be compared to any human.

also barrett have much less recoil vs tor.

heavy burak and heavy tor.jpg

Edited by BrzydkiBurak
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17 hours ago, TZoningHard said:

 

"Oh look, here are multiple videos of people shooting while standing up. Clearly, this counters any argument against me."

 

Cool story bro.

Now show me a video where the person shooting is actually hitting anything past 25M and not just shooting into a berm or downrange at thin air like every video you have posted so far.

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Lets see how those folks in the youtube videos actually perform with their 50 cal anti material rifle under pressure, been in combat, adrenaline pumping, and  stuffed their face with food more then twice a day and sitting on their butts watching their cable tv. I guarantee their aim or ability to carry the rifle while running would be garbage. and the viper 12 definitely needs to be nerfed severely if the devs are going to be nerfing all the ar platform and ak platform rifles.

Edited by DaHuntzMen
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Hey leave my TOR alone please; I enjoy killing T-72s and LEOs with it, while dropping nearby infantry with one shot in the dick.

Edited by Houndz
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The Vepr.. Ohhh hell yes...  please fix this busted gun and consider deranking players who are abusing it. even at the "game expected range" of shotguns this weapon is broken and ludachris, especially when I'm the sniper getting out-sniped by 8 shots from a shotgun from clear across a street (100+m) Theirs no way to spin it to. if you use this gun in a broken state your abusing a glitch at this point as many people know its busted and won't hesitate to remind people of that in game.

So yes, i would say nerf the spread to at least be consistent with the MCS or do something about it. as in its current state this gun is busted AF.

*takes a calming breath*

 

Okay. now onto the TOR. I appreciate this gun for allot of reasons. Its a potent demon of  a SR that provides quite a fair counter to enemy vehicles and helps slice through that effing level 3 armor everyone rambos around with. and used right it can lock down a capture point and keep it safe or provide impressive long range cover fire on an assault. Like it or not i like the one hit potential of the gun as nothing a human can wear can safely stop a 50 caliber round even it the armor stops it the blunt force trauma your chest or head would receive would kill you, Hell even the shock-wave around the bullet has been known to be fatal>

 

I will also say while yes, realistically the TOR couldn't easily be shoulder fired other weapon systems like the barret series most certainly can and may only kick you only as hard as a 762x39 round would deliver. these systems use floating barrels and recoil compensation inside the gun to absorb the recoil before it even hits you. so your statement that 50 cals can't be shoulder fired is false. 

 

However i will say the tor perhaps should receive a sway penalty if your standing with it as that gun is extremely bulky with its default barrel and perhaps should sway much harder when being shoulder fired. unless of course later on you get the option of shortening the barrel. a Gun like the Tor should be bipoded 

 

But to do anything else to it would be short of blasphemy its a 50 cal weapon, if you got a problem with the sniper sneak up on his ass and take him out, you got plenty of kit options for that too including a snipers prime enemy.. smoke grenades.

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1 hour ago, Afonso said:

What about my favourite gun the Alpha?

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

no-one touches my orange juice 

edit:

@SwitchaRusski I know right, who would have thought that shotguns should be good at close range/ but be fair recoil should be increased

Edited by Marg

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The TOR is fine, though. I don't think it needs any substantial tweaking from a gameplay perspective. 

Edit: The problem with the Vepr is not CQC, it's the medium distance engagements. This shotgun is demolishing people at 100m in 3 or 4 shots. Normal effective range for buckshot is no more than 50 meters. If the mag were loaded with slugs, this would be a much different story. 

Edited by SwitchaRusski
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@Evaris

Oh no you're right, but I meant gameplay terms we are "assuming" that plate can stop 7.62mm. When in actuality you'd be pretty damn lucky to walk away from that. The same thing with helmets, you would never expect one to stop any sort of round other than... well I guess the Ronin is supposed to be able to resist a variety of calibres? Not sure I had no experience with it and it wasn't even a thing when I was in, but yeah these helmets we are wearing int he game right now could barely resist 9mm at distance, mostly meant to protect you from falling etc and the off chance of debris and possibly shrapnel.

And for sure the Veper-12 should be fearsome up close, its sort of pathetic how crappy the MCS is in close ranger vs the Veper 12... but the Veper 12 out damaging 7.62/5.56mm assault rifles, lmg's, and even sniper rifles at 40-100 meters is just ridiculous especially when about 60 meters the Veper 12 fires a perfect torso-sized cone.  It makes no sense in a gameplay aspect and sort of unrealistic even in a reality take on it, though reality should definitely be sacrificed for fun... there's nothing fun with the Veper 12 as is.

 

The TOR is a seriously sticky wicket, I get that people want them to deal with tanks and the like and that's valid. You should be able to crouch aim and hit optics, but a reload with it should be pretty length unless you are prone. Standing and firing it should just be not a real option, gameplay wise or reality wise. People are jumping and scoping in then one shotting people with the darn thing for hecks sake, that's pretty silly.

Edited by Valaska
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Vepr is just too strong all around. We dont need a rock paper scissor approach to how guns preform against each other. Right now the vepr out shines both other shotguns when it should be horizontally balanced to them and to other weapons.

Ill do some testing with the vepr but it needs some tweeking along with a small nerf. As a semi auto it should be more for giving then the pump action but the pumps should by game balance theory give the advantage since it is the less forgiving option.

 

The TOR as a sniper is fine and is near where the other should be but with a lower re bolt time. If they want to put the TOR into anti material category giving it different mechanics to make it a more slow strategic weapon as they give it more damage and bring up the other bolters to its current level then that is fine and welcomed. I just want another bolter to replace it as they do it so we have variety.

 

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15 hours ago, SwitchaRusski said:

The TOR is fine, though. I don't think it needs any substantial tweaking from a gameplay perspective. 

Edit: The problem with the Vepr is not CQC, it's the medium distance engagements. This shotgun is demolishing people at 100m in 3 or 4 shots. Normal effective range for buckshot is no more than 50 meters. If the mag were loaded with slugs, this would be a much different story. 

TOR is not fine(every 3rd player runs around with it and this game is slowly turning into sniper-fest), it can pen front of turrets and deal SUBSTANTIAL DMG to vehicles (it deals half damage of god damn APFSDS projectile), i would say it's game-breaking, because now no-one is using IFV/ APCs or wheeled drones. Usage of RPG doped in AT role because why risk if it's accurate only up to 150m and APS will deny hit anyway or flank vehicle to pen side armor while you can just spam almost anything to death with .50 call AP bullets shooting at front from safe distance.  Tanks are meta because only tanks can survive front shots.

 

TOR should be must be limited a pick up weapon or changed in the way said spam is impossible.

Edited by Marg
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5 hours ago, TZoningHard said:

Vepr is just too strong all around. We dont need a rock paper scissor approach to how guns preform against each other. Right now the vepr out shines both other shotguns when it should be horizontally balanced to them and to other weapons.

Ill do some testing with the vepr but it needs some tweeking along with a small nerf. As a semi auto it should be more for giving then the pump action but the pumps should by game balance theory give the advantage since it is the less forgiving option.

 

The TOR as a sniper is fine and is near where the other should be but with a lower re bolt time. If they want to put the TOR into anti material category giving it different mechanics to make it a more slow strategic weapon as they give it more damage and bring up the other bolters to its current level then that is fine and welcomed. I just want another bolter to replace it as they do it so we have variety.

 

Another bolt action to replace it is perfectly reasonable. L96 would be a wonderful addition which is a .308 and can have straight pull bolts on it, the G22 is a variant of the L96 with the same round as the G29 if I'm not wrong. Hell, there's a huge variety of additions, I'd personally like to see more AR's too such as the FAMAS Valorise or something that's not an AK in a dress... literally, 80% of the AR's are just AK's.

But the TOR as it is, is pissing players off and makes no sense. It is more effective against armour than rockets for instance. It's so heavily spammed that players are seeing this thing in the death feed almost every death and it's not being spammed because of it's well balanced... a lot of people are lugging both the Vor and the Veper 12 around which is just cheese on cheese. These two weapons need some fixes, really-really needs them.

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On 11/5/2018 at 3:01 AM, Twitch_Hawkeyepc said:

Hell even the shock-wave around the bullet has been known to be fatal> 

no.
 

On 11/5/2018 at 3:01 AM, Twitch_Hawkeyepc said:

realistically the TOR couldn't easily be shoulder fired other weapon systems like the barret series most certainly can

no. your aim will be shit.

On 11/5/2018 at 3:01 AM, Twitch_Hawkeyepc said:

these systems use floating barrels and recoil compensation inside the gun to absorb the recoil before it even hits you.

tor? no.
 

On 11/5/2018 at 3:01 AM, Twitch_Hawkeyepc said:

so your statement that 50 cals can't be shoulder fired is false. 


no. valaska is wrong only with shoulder damage part.

i use 50cal weapons irl - tor included. u dont.

aim tor while standing with rpg in backpack and full military gear. u cant. end of story.
 

image12.jpg

Edited by BrzydkiBurak
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