Jump to content
Stryker

Realism over Balance/Fun

Recommended Posts

I mean, what the fuck happened to this game? The TTK used to be decent on launch.  Now that the devs are "balancing" the game, are we going to see another generic BF4-like shooter?

 

My Gripes

  • Bullets don't do much damage (pea shooters srsly?).
  • The recoil on some weapons is way too high.
  • Shotguns and RPG don't do shit to infantry.
  • The pacing feels too fast for a tactical shooter.
  • Muzzle velocity on all weapons shouldn't be dumbed down.
  • HE shells have weak splash damage.
  • The ROF of 50.cal Coaxial and RCWS are too slow.
  • Headglitching. (Bullets/Projectiles should originate from the barrel, not the camera/head)
  • Lack of weapon and barrel collision, especially for turrets.
  • Suppressors should decrease recoil by weight and improve accuracy by giving additional barrel length, and in return increases gas blowback.
Edited by Stryker
  • Like 4
  • Haha 1
  • Confused 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Stryker said:

I mean, what the fuck happened to this game? The TTK used to be decent on launch.  Now that the devs are "balancing" the game, are we going to see another generic BF4-like shooter?

 

My Gripes

  • Bullets don't do much damage (pea shooters srsly?). Agree
  • The recoil on some weapons is way too high. Which weapon? I don't feel the recoil is too much.
  • Shotguns and RPG don't do shit to infantry. RPG & Shotguns nurfed because they were OP.
  • The pacing feels too fast for a tactical shooter. Agree
  • Muzzle velocity on all weapons shouldn't be dumbed down. With long barrels, you can full auto across the map.
  • HE shells have weak splash damage.
  • The ROF of 50.cal Coaxial and RCWS are too slow.
  • Headglitching. (Bullets/Projectiles should originate from the barrel, not the camera/head) Agree
  • Lack of weapon and barrel collision, especially for turrets. Agree
  • Suppressors should decrease recoil by weight and improve accuracy by giving additional barrel length, and in return increases gas blowback.

 

Edited by RealFox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Bullets don't do much damage (pea shooters srsly?).They do too much damage and hurt the possible depth to the the gunfights. Low TTK makes the games firefights shallow and limits what a player can do to improve his DPS and what they can do to out play the enemy. I would add that its 3 bullets to the gut to instantly kill which is very unrealistic as that would have a 50/50 chance of causing massive incapacitating pain or just be pain full but allow them to still fight with out being life threatening unless hemorrhaging in IRL, Back shots are similar, as a lung shot wont out right kill a person and you have two lungs but a heart shot would still not be instant as you would have a couple seconds of conscious in your brain till it blacks out from no oxygen. Even head shot tend to have bullets bounce off if they didn't hit straight on and 1 out of 10 head shot victims survive.
  • The recoil on some weapons is way too high. IDK what weapons you have issues with but hte recoil here is very controllable and if made any less would remove some of the challenge forcing the guns to be balanced more in the way of RNG instead of skill. I have very low sensitivity and I have no issues. You got to get batter at recoil control as that is a trained skill.
  • Shotguns and RPG don't do shit to infantry. Shot guns did not need a range nerf at all, the MCS was perfectly fine but Vepr was op because of spread and rate of fire along with its damage. They should revert the range as shotguns are kinda bad now.
  • The pacing feels too fast for a tactical shooter. Pacing does not mean more or less tactical. You can look at quake which is way more tactical then most games out there and really fast similar to Planetside 2 which I have not seen many games be as tactical oriented as it and it is a pretty quick at some times. You can have fast and tactical as many times IRL tactics are fast not slow and methodical like some LARP games try to push as reality. The slow pace of a game is more to lower the skill floor not to push tactics
  • Muzzle velocity on all weapons shouldn't be dumbed down.
  • HE shells have weak splash damage. HEAT round which are HE in game dont have big splash as they are mostly shaped charges, tanks usaully dont have high splash rounds for anti infantry . It was also very OP and kep players form being able to take any kind of cover.
  • The ROF of 50.cal Coaxial and RCWS are too slow.
  • Headglitching. (Bullets/Projectiles should originate from the barrel, not the camera/head) I hope this gets fixed in the future and was a Issue of mine ever since the AMA.
  • Lack of weapon and barrel collision, especially for turrets.
  • Suppressors should decrease recoil by weight and improve accuracy by giving additional barrel length, and in return increases gas blowback.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Balance =/= Fun

I do like realism over balance myself, that is what I find fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, TZoningHard said:

HE shells have weak splash damage. HEAT round which are HE in game dont have big splash as they are mostly shaped charges, tanks usaully dont have high splash rounds for anti infantry . It was also very OP and kep players form being able to take any kind of cover.

Nah, you're wrong. HE shells are HE shells- average armor penetration but good splash damage. If there was no bug with strikes visibility in menu, you could've see it when hovering on the ammo type :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Kony said:

Nah, you're wrong. HE shells are HE shells- average armor penetration but good splash damage. If there was no bug with strikes visibility in menu, you could've see it when hovering on the ammo type :) 

I was talking about the IRL version of that round in that instance for a comparison to the in game verion. Sorry for the confusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Devyx said:

Balance =/= Fun

I do like realism over balance myself, that is what I find fun.

Realistically you wouldn't have random infantry calling in custom tanks for themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the bullet damage is quite fine. If anything I would say it could be slightly higher for my liking but I would definitely not something I would the devs urge to change.

As for the recoil side I would rather say it is too low but that is also highly subjective as I would like to see more semi-auto use.

@TZoningHard I do not exactly know where your impression comes from that a low TTK leads to less depth and skill in firefights. By having a low TTK you emphasize another skillset. Most likely this will promote smart playing and positioning as exposing to enemy fire gets punished quickly. A high TTK in my opinion sets the focus more on reflexes and potentially also recoil control. If you can run around like a maniac knowing you will survive like 5 bullets or so and react the moment you get shot by flicking the mouse around and killing the enemy in a single spray that is certainly skillful but in my opinion not that methodical. Now you obviously play the game a lot and have strong image of what you want it be like. But that does not make your view on which skills the game should focus on the golden truth.

As for the pacing and muzzle velocity I would agree with the OP. The pacing could be a little slower imo but I do not know how to achieve that the best and the bullet drop is maybe a bit too pronounced.

The suppressors do already reduce the recoil slightly don't they? If they also add to the accuracy I think one would have to change the other barrel attachements as well because the suppressor would otherwise be almost a no brainer given it improves the weapon's handling, its effectiveness per shot by reducing the spread and makes the shooter harder to spot. So I disagree here.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, HeiligeRobbe said:

The suppressors do already reduce the recoil slightly don't they? If they also add to the accuracy I think one would have to change the other barrel attachements as well because the suppressor would otherwise be almost a no brainer given it improves the weapon's handling, its effectiveness per shot by reducing the spread and makes the shooter harder to spot. So I disagree here.

I could be wrong but I believe suppressors add to the weight of the weapon, reducing ADS speed and possibly increasing sway (not sure if this is implemented or coming later). I don't think suppressors decrease recoil currently, and weirdly I noticed that grips don't seem to lower recoil according to their stats, but I'm not sure if those numbers are correct or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I haven't done any ingame testing but the stats for the suppressors all say Recoil: 0.9 and for the compensators it's 0.85 so I interpreted this as a multiplier but I could be wrong there. Also I do not know how this interacts with the default barrel attachment. The G38 carries a compensator so attaching a suppressor instead should increase the recoil by 0.05 from my understanding.

RecoilComp.jpg

RecoilSupp.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, HeiligeRobbe said:

Well I haven't done any ingame testing but the stats for the suppressors all say Recoil: 0.9 and for the compensators it's 0.85 so I interpreted this as a multiplier but I could be wrong there. Also I do not know how this interacts with the default barrel attachment. The G38 carries a compensator so attaching a suppressor instead should increase the recoil by 0.05 from my understanding.

I can't check right now but I saw that the long barrel attachment gives negative recoil, so I assumed this was an increase/decrease value rather than a multiplier, though it's possible I'm wrong and the value I saw was bugged.

 

Edit: Actually I can check, the AK-15 long barrel has -0.2 recoil and the short barrel has -0.05, so unless something is broken that suggests that the grips and suppressors I've looked at all increase recoil.

Edited by Cral

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HeiligeRobbe said:

 

@TZoningHard I do not exactly know where your impression comes from that a low TTK leads to less depth and skill in firefights. By having a low TTK you emphasize another skillset. Most likely this will promote smart playing and positioning as exposing to enemy fire gets punished quickly. A high TTK in my opinion sets the focus more on reflexes and potentially also recoil control. If you can run around like a maniac knowing you will survive like 5 bullets or so and react the moment you get shot by flicking the mouse around and killing the enemy in a single spray that is certainly skillful but in my opinion not that methodical. Now you obviously play the game a lot and have strong image of what you want it be like. But that does not make your view on which skills the game should focus on the golden truth.
 

Low TTK emphasize reflex aiming as mathematical fact as you only need to land a few shots which occur in less then a split second to end the situation. You need not to aim at a smaller harder to hit target if they will die in under .4 seconds leading to just needing to hit the target first instead of trying to go for harder to hit but higher damage spots on the target. Along with flinch if you are the first to hit the target then they will have their aim thrown off and they will certainly die before they can recover as you really only need to land 3 shots to the gut.

What I do now with this lowish TTK is exactly flick the mouse around when I see a person as I have to be the first to shoot. If I am the first to shoot I am almost guaranteed to win and I can just put my self into situations like peeking a corner to use the lag to see and kill a enemy before they can react as I have already fired before they can see me on their screen due to lag securing their death with little effort. Even if the lag was low enough for the receiver to see the shooter he still has a average reaction time of .28 factoring in the lag to that which makes it still very improbable to react to a corner peaker as the TTK is greater then the time they could react to return fire.

Low TTK is mainly Reflex oriented only when it comes to skill. Mid which would be around 6-8 shots to the body which is .5-.9 seconds or 4-5 shots to the head which is .4-.5 seconds in this game. Positioning  still as a big part to skilled play and is still methodical but allows reactions to people ending up with harder to hit targets that will actually have a chance to take cover, move about to try and dodge your aim and have the room to out DPS you if you are a bad shot. With medium TTK you still have a reason to try and aim better at a higher damage area such as the head to lower the TTK  which would be more beneficial then reflexing to get the first shot. I also pushes continuous aim with is much more challenging and skilled then just reflex aiming as it also encompasses that as well.

Having a higher TTK would actually slow down the game and push it away from a run and reflex on people game since you have to expose and or slow down your self to shoot and kill for longer. Instead of killing the enemy in .4 or less seconds then moving back to cover or just continuing on like right now.

Not moving smartly will still get you killed regardless and methodically doesn't mean slow it means to have a method or a order to how you move even if the game speed up which having a longer time to do any thing would work in opposite of that.

 

I just want a game that isn't easy with a low TTK so I have more room to grow and more of a challenge so the game will stay more interesting from the extra depth because running around and reflexing on people can get boring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw your new thread so we should continue the discussion there. But there is one thing I want to answer quite quickly. I can follow your argumentation quite well up to a certain point. A low TTK is not mainly reflex oriented imo. If that was case this would lead to much more reflex oriented gameplay in low TTK games. Is that truly what we see?

I think the peaker's advantage is really crucial here and should be eliminated as much as possible, If I get the jump on someone because I flanked them or get in there back I think a quick and almost guarnteed kill is indeed desirable. My reflexes and aiming is fairly bad I admit. But by playing smart and looking for flanks or unexpected angles I do better in WW3 than for example in Bf4 with a significantly longer TTK - but okay that is a very personal example.

But the situations you describe where someone rounds a corner and can start to shoot even before I see the player are truly a problem. I am not sure though, if this isn't more like a technical issue. It happens quite often to me that I hear someone running in my direction so I take a bit of cover and aim for the corner. Now I should have a massive advantage as I can even prefire the enemy. Only my shots miss the target because it's a few steps ahead from where I see it and I die instantly as three shots are send in a single package. This hopefully gets reduced in the coming updates.

So yeah lets continue in your new thread :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Cral said:

Realistically you wouldn't have random infantry calling in custom tanks for themselves.

Though you could see a military use different modifications of different tanks. You also see at least 3 people commanding a single tank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i also noticed that game went downhill

BF clone? Armor plates are smaller but TTK is longer unless you are using sniper rifle, then you have oneshot pass. There is no point in using heavy load-outs i see no TTD difference  while using light or heavy plates/ even III lv helmets got decimated(got smaller some how? or aim bot is a real thing in this game). Vehicles got nerfd to the point there is no point in investing BP and you wont have much fun with them... it's better to just call in arty on contested cap... yeah less hardcore less will to play. But normal BF4 fan will be pleased

Edited by Marg
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Marg said:

Vehicles got nerfd to the point there is no point in investing BP and you wont have much fun with them... it's better to just call in arty on contested cap... 

Calling bullshit on this point, vehicles can still rack up way more kills than any other streak available.

 

Also I'm not sure if I'm playing a different game to others but heavier armor definitely affects the TTK, only by an extra bullet or two but that can be enough to decide a fight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Cral said:

Calling bullshit on this point, vehicles can still rack up way more kills than any other streak available.

 

Also I'm not sure if I'm playing a different game to others but heavier armor definitely affects the TTK, only by an extra bullet or two but that can be enough to decide a fight.

Because those are god damn vehicles! What do you want nerf them to the point tank will get 1-2kills top? And when do people learn it's not about kills but getting points -.-.

I call massive BS on that one!

Edited by Marg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Marg said:

Because those are god damn vehicles! What do you want nerf them to the point tank will get 1-2kills top? And when do people learn it's not about kills but getting points -.-

Don't be so condescending, in vehicles the main method of getting points is supporting your team by getting kills in key areas of the map, sitting on a capture point is way too dangerous (as it should be). Vehicles are still immensely powerful you just need to actually use them effectively now, rather than racing all over the map spraying shots in the rough area of enemies. If you can't get more than a couple of kills with a vehicle then you need to rethink how you use them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Cral said:

Don't be so condescending, in vehicles the main method of getting points is supporting your team by getting kills in key areas of the map, sitting on a capture point is way too dangerous (as it should be). Vehicles are still immensely powerful you just need to actually use them effectively now, rather than racing all over the map spraying shots in the rough area of enemies. If you can't get more than a couple of kills with a vehicle then you need to rethink how you use them.

do you play with them? Right now it takes one not well coordinated infantry man to totally wreck them. The tanks that are suppose to be powerhouses are reduced to target practices because of HE nerf. How you want to support your team with that? Where is that firepower? Where is that "efficiency" when you can't do anything as support other than getting shot at. It's better to just bring sniper rifle and you would be much more useful.

And what will tankers do when Spike system will be introduced? 

also if you are sitting in capture zone with a vehicle when there is enemy around, you are not very smart... 

And that "racing" never seen that for a long, because if someone did that in front of me, he get tandem warhead up his ass

Edited by Marg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Marg said:

do you play with them? Right now it takes one not well coordinated infantry man to totally wreck them. The tanks that are suppose to be powerhouses are reduced to target practices because of HE nerf. How you want to support your team with that? Where is that firepower? Where is that "efficiency" when you can't do anything as support other than getting shot at. It's better to just bring sniper rifle and you would be much more useful.

And what will tankers do when Spike system will be introduced? 

also if you are sitting in capture zone with a vehicle when there is enemy around, you are not very smart... 

And that "racing" never seen that for a long, because if someone did that in front of me, he get tandem warhead up his ass

I do, though I prefer infantry. You can one tap infantry from any range with a full auto cannon while using thermals to highlight everyone, smoke to provide cover and you can't be one-tapped unless you allow the enemy to get behind you and spend time switching to tandem rockets. The only major balance issue I see is with the TOR, as it really shouldn't be able to destroy tanks, it should only break modules (including weapons) or kill passengers in my opinion.

Edited by Cral
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cral said:

I do, though I prefer infantry. You can one tap infantry from any range with a full auto cannon while using thermals to highlight everyone, smoke to provide cover and you can't be one-tapped unless you allow the enemy to get behind you and spend time switching to tandem rockets. The only major balance issue I see is with the TOR, as it really shouldn't be able to destroy tanks, it should only break modules (including weapons) or kill passengers in my opinion.

so you don't play them, if you prefer infantry why would you say something negative about nerfs. Why would anyone put 4000BP+ into vehicle that can't play it's role? Is this game objective based or kill? Doesn't infantry have smoke? Can't you basically two shot anything with tandem? Is it team work oriented game or headless chicken running sim? What is your point? How can you defend those nerfs?

How is that i never had problems when it came to dealing with any vehicle and now it's just feels like beating babies!Infantry shouldn't have "safe space" when there is 40-60t beast lurking around. There is no challenge in killing tanks or APC or IFV. It's got boring. 

Edited by Marg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Marg said:

so you don't play them, if you prefer infantry why would you say something negative about nerfs. Why would anyone put 4000BP+ into vehicle that can't play it's role? Is this game about objectives or kills? Doesn't infantry have smoke? Can't you basically two shot anything with tandem? Is it team based game or headless chicken running sim? What is your point?

How is that i never had problems when it came to dealing with any vehicle and now it's just feels like beating babies!

I literally just said I do play them. Tanks were way too easy to dominate with previously, now they require effort and therefore are better balanced, that's my point. Players rarely used artillery or bombing runs before because armored vehicles were just so powerful that anything else was a waste of BP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Cral said:

I literally just said I do play them. Tanks were way too easy to dominate with previously, now they require effort and therefore are better balanced, that's my point. Players rarely used artillery or bombing runs before because armored vehicles were just so powerful that anything else was a waste of BP.

well, we haven't played the same game then. Arty and booming was always in use Vehicles are now almost useless, yes you can kill with them and no you can't support infantry like before. You can't argue that anything is 1-3shot (APS) for tandem, you can't argue the fact that any high caliber HE/SE shell is useless. What is the point in having vehicle in battle right now other than scoring long range meaningless kills with auto-cannons loaded with AP shells or for self hating individuals HE/SH?

Right now not a single (for me as infantry) armored vehicle is a meaning full threat anymore. 

Also if i worked hard for my 6000BP tank why i have to be punished for it/ not rewarded?

I will say that again BS/

Edited by Marg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...