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jabbothehut

Warsaw is a terrible tdm map

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There are so many crossfire areas and lanes all looking into each other with rotating spawnpoints which make pushing one direction impossible due to the inevitable cheap flanks (cheap meaning gifted by a spawn). I suggest the devs block off more of the map and keep it smaller. Berlin TDM map is really good as you have a good idea of where to expect enemies and there are good lanes and paths which allow you to traverse the map without being exposed to 100 different angles.

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3 hours ago, jabbothehut said:

There are so many crossfire areas and lanes all looking into each other with rotating spawnpoints which make pushing one direction impossible

that what TDM is...

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Posted (edited)

Tdm is the gamemode. A gamemode needs to be well designed in order to have fun. Take any other gamemode and stick it in that little section of warsaw and it would be bad. By your logic i could make a completely flat open map with 0 cover, stick flags around it and say "it's warzone" when people complain about bad map design. 

Rotating spawns are essential but currently they they flip so fast that you just get rear ended by people who havn't even encountered an enemy before getting to shoot you in the back. Or having to check 10 different angles everytime you turn a corner. It isnt fun and is extremely random.

Edited by jabbothehut
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I think that design (or lack of it as you describe it) of Warsaw TDM map was to make it a little bit more chaotic, almost as in FFA game mode. Some people like it and some don't. I agree it could use some more covers here and there - but I don't think if that's our top priority issue right now. Thank you for your feedback though :)

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Warsaw personally is my favourite map, has a great flow to the game as long as your team does not camp up in spawn. 

 

Berlin on the other hand I'm not to keen 

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See? There are as many opinions as people that are playing the game. It's simply not possible to make everyone happy with, unfortunately. But hey... we are still trying :)

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I feel [INSERT EMOTION] about the [INSERT MAP]. If that map could [INSERT SUGGESTION] then things would be [INSERT OUTCOME].

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I like Warsav a lot more than Berlin, personally. I feel like Berlin it's a bit too big and has a lot of areas that does not have so many people (for example the corridors from the hotel/cafè with the two huge hands to the lower floor of what i believe is a Library)

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I bet the Moscow TDM map will be based in that shopping mall from Moscow > Warzone > Large > Between D1 and D2.

Either that or the capital building. Not sure what I'd prefer, but both would be great choices.

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I choose Berlin over Warsaw. Warsaw is indeed not practical because of the two floors you have. To many spots where you can get hit from. You cant check every place while running. Especially when its dark. Visibility is almost zero. To annoying! 

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Warsaw TDM is great map - many covers, many ways to flank, many ways to die :D

It is literally arena, not just "corridor wars"

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Problem is you spawn in circles and it because a chase the spawn tp get kills situation. It does feel FFA, I couldn't put my finger on it but Ryuzaki said that well.

I dont think cover is the reason but the over all map layout. maybe add a area above B1 store then bridge it to B2 store. and some ways to have better holds for keeping the endless circling from happening.

 

Maps are cool and all but probably the most hurting thing content wise with this game. A good map can make up for the rest of the game and gunplay can make up for poor maps.

Need to look more at other games maps to make good ones.

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On 1/1/2019 at 6:19 AM, jabbothehut said:

There are so many crossfire areas and lanes all looking into each other with rotating spawnpoints which make pushing one direction impossible due to the inevitable cheap flanks (cheap meaning gifted by a spawn). I suggest the devs block off more of the map and keep it smaller. Berlin TDM map is really good as you have a good idea of where to expect enemies and there are good lanes and paths which allow you to traverse the map without being exposed to 100 different angles.

Lmao, are you seriously defending Berlin TDM? The map where you can camp in the buildings and pick off random people that don't even see you. 

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On 1/1/2019 at 6:55 PM, jabbothehut said:

By your logic i could make a completely flat open map with 0 cover, stick flags around it and say "it's warzone" when people complain about bad map design. 

 

*cough* Smolensk *cough* ? 

Talking about smolensk currently is bad to play as you have no cover due to walls being paper (shoot trough anything). It is however not a bad map. In fact I quite like the open areas and a lot of people have the same opinion and just wished that trees and walls would be solid. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Artaxiad300062 said:

Lmao, are you seriously defending Berlin TDM? The map where you can camp in the buildings and pick off random people that don't even see you. 

This is true and then again it's not. I don't play it that often and when I did there was a least one camper, but: you do kind of know where to expect them, as they mainly in certain areas. 

 

 

My feeling about Warsaw is not the same as topic openers. I have had rounds where I would "defend" from one position throughout the entire round. Not because I'm a camper but because enemies kept running in to me then I heal, reload and there is the next one already. I have also had rounds where you can't set a foot out as you get shot from all sides and it is very frustrating at times, when you or your team is being shot at from 4 different directions. 

I would love to see something like a barrier that rotates with the earned kills starting from 12'o and then pushing ether side depending on the kills. The barrier opens like a new path to go trough from only one side and is blocked for the other team with less points. Like a ramp for example. 

But that's just me, would be interesting to hear what others think about this. 

 

Anyway. In short terms : Berlin yes, Warsaw no. My personal opinion stated with subjective reasons. 

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On 1/2/2019 at 8:58 AM, Ryuzaki said:

See? There are as many opinions as people that are playing the game. It's simply not possible to make everyone happy with, unfortunately. But hey... we are still trying :)

Of course it isn't! That's 100% right. You cannot please everyone. Your goal as devs, I'm assuming, is to pick a target audience and a style of game. The design is completely up to you guys of course as I am just a customer very keen on seeing an awesome product. That being said however, there are mechanics which are much more rewarding than others. You guys are very lucky as you have a perfect example with the BF franchise that shows you how failing to pick a specific audience with focus on the fundamental mechanics will lead to your franchise dying. From what I've experienced as a gamer (so take this with a pinch of salt as my views are more comp shooter geared), maps shouldn't be designed to force constant chaos as it becomes unreadable and random with a compressed skillgap. Now I'm not suggesting you guys create WW3 deDust_2 or Operation Metro as that is too much for big pub games. However take a look at the most played maps across BF history (I reference BF a lot because you guys are building a similar product) and you will see that special attention is payed to divide the maps into areas and set lanes with 1 or 2 points which let you see across all areas but are very exposed when doing so (the rooftops in operation firestorm in bf3). It allows players to focus on pushing a lane, control an area, and push or hold. If you expose every area to chaos and 100+ different angles then you get a situation where you get shafted if you push or hold depending on whether the enemy team got a lucky spawn or not. Same with gunplay and soldier movement and ttk. The world is your oyster as a Dev and as I don't want to tell you how to do your job because I'm just a rando on the internet. My point is that combinations and mechanics have been tried and tested so don't ignore previous outcomes :D

Thanks for reading and for putting in so much work on this game!

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@jabbothehut I appreciate your input. We are the devs, yes, but that doesn't mean we do everything perfect and that we know better. You are players and we want you to have fun in our game - so in overall players know better, because we do what players want :D. We have plenty of work at the moment, so we cannot perfect every aspect of the game and move to the next, because it may appear that the next aspect doesn't fit the previous one, we have to undo a lot of progress and thus we are wasting a lot of time. Think of it as of tightening the screws on a car wheel or some hardware piece. You tighten a little bit in each corner evenly so you don't break things and you don't have to come back and loosen a screw - that's what we do, we tighten a little bit of each of the aspects. So just be patient and keep posting your insights and thoughts as we gather them all and really read them :)

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29 minutes ago, Ryuzaki said:

@jabbothehut I appreciate your input. We are the devs, yes, but that doesn't mean we do everything perfect and that we know better. You are players and we want you to have fun in our game - so in overall players know better, because we do what players want :D. We have plenty of work at the moment, so we cannot perfect every aspect of the game and move to the next, because it may appear that the next aspect doesn't fit the previous one, we have to undo a lot of progress and thus we are wasting a lot of time. Think of it as of tightening the screws on a car wheel or some hardware piece. You tighten a little bit in each corner evenly so you don't break things and you don't have to come back and loosen a screw - that's what we do, we tighten a little bit of each of the aspects. So just be patient and keep posting your insights and thoughts as we gather them all and really read them :)

Sounds like a plan!

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Warsaws main issue is the spawns and how they rotate. IDK how but maybe make the map bigger to accommodate one more better spawn.

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2 hours ago, TZoningHard said:

Warsaws main issue is the spawns and how they rotate. IDK how but maybe make the map bigger to accommodate one more better spawn.

Especially in the start of a round when you are spawning about 50m from enemy spawn.

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I think "team spawn" is terrible system when all your team spawn in the same area, sometimes 0-10m away from the enemy. It should be replaced with personal and random spawnpoints. Anyway TDM is not about teamplay (maybe just squadplay)

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Perhaps this video can help a few people. I address the spawning issue and offer a solution.

I will admit that my perspective is a little more catered to teams that play together in discord because that has been 90% of my experience with this game, none the less, I believe everyone can apply whats in this video even to solo play.

 

 

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I'd suggest that the chaotic nature of Warsaw increases the skill cap, rather. Linearly designed play creates strategy that operates on two dimensions, and with the structureless nature that Warsaw has, it lends itself to the development of far more complex strategy and teamplay.

 

Though, I find that this type of structure lends itself best to FFA or multi-team type modes. I do really enjoy the FFA type feeling even though it is actually TDM; it's like a low anxiety FFA.

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