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Current Gameplay design

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On 2/12/2019 at 5:22 PM, TZoningHard said:

The Truth!

Have you noticed how many players who supported the game vanished? I've already written the game off. Patch 0.4 is even more buggy on my machine than clean 0.3. I think the developers are completely clueless when making this game. This 'democratic' approach at developing the game hurts it a lot as there is no clear vision what the game is to become. Is it just a dump FPS with some interesting mechanics? Is it a mindless TDM? Is it grind-simulator to get to play with the vehicles? Is it just a tech demo with customization options that make weapons so ugly that it makes me wanna puke? Is it tactical and strategic or reflex only? What the heck is this game? Everyone here is pulling in different directions which will just tear this game apart.

Too many Chiefs on a single meal.

How did games that have a legendary status do it? Where there thousands of players providing feedback all the time or was there a team with a vision of what the game is to be? I doubt that it was the first notion.

Also, a few important things they said came out opposite in reality, for example:

- The game was not to become a one-week hit and then disappear from the radar. - Exactly that happened!

- They want the game to be improved with each patch and enhance the experience. - Reality is that with each patch after 0.1 the game became worse and worse - technically and gameplay wise.

- They say that they are gamers and know what is fun and what is frustrating but playing the game for the last 2 - 3 months has been only a frustrating experience for me.

I wish that I could go back in time and tell my past self not to trust these developers and not touch this pile of garbage. Lesson learned.

Edited by sivkon
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7 hours ago, Borreh said:

Limb damage will be decreased in an upcoming patch (from 75% to 60%), headshot damage will be increased by 25%, and in the future we'll take a look at armors and buff them somewhat (we have a number of options here). Increasing the BTK by 1-2 bullets is also a possibility (I'd rather have that done through an armor buff tho).

Overall we'd want to keep the TTK in the low/medium low regions but increase the role of shot placement, so that an efficient and accurate player will have a significant edge over a spraying one while still keeping the player health amounts somewhat realistic/authentic. Once we're satisfied with the TTK/BTK we'll take a look at exact recoil balancing.

 

This is a great approach, thanks for the feedback. And finally, headshot damage is getting buffed, and this is the whole head right, with helmet included, or is it just the face area? Limb damage down to 60 is another good idea, only 10% more than 0.3's, rather than 25% more in 0.4.1.

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2 hours ago, sivkon said:

I wish that I could go back in time and tell my past self not to trust these developers and not touch this pile of garbage. Lesson learned.

You bought an early access game and are complaining? It's basically a gamble, the devs can shut down the game at any moment. They could even take all your money at launch and leave steam. These guys are still here and trying to make a good game, so your complaints are unfair. Triple A games like BF4, took a team of hundreds over at Dice, with several years of development, these guys are like 50-70 guys, working on it alongside our feedback. This way they build a game the community wants. 

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9 hours ago, Borreh said:

Limb damage will be decreased in an upcoming patch (from 75% to 60%), headshot damage will be increased by 25%, and in the future we'll take a look at armors and buff them somewhat (we have a number of options here). Increasing the BTK by 1-2 bullets is also a possibility (I'd rather have that done through an armor buff tho).

Overall we'd want to keep the TTK in the low/medium low regions but increase the role of shot placement, so that an efficient and accurate player will have a significant edge over a spraying one while still keeping the player health amounts somewhat realistic/authentic. Once we're satisfied with the TTK/BTK we'll take a look at exact recoil balancing.

 

Its a video game just make the gameplay good, realism games dont have good shooting mechanics and for a reason because it wont work unless you make people miss all the time and slow down their ability to kill other quickly which is not how the gunplay in older BFs or WW3 is set. Squad, RS, and Insurgency all put shooting in the back seat because they want to force other aspects while trying to be realistic meaning that the gunplay suffers a lot to have.

"Hardcore" in BF and Cod has always been the worse game mode because you could brute force your way out of most situations, didn't have to think, or use good positioning. Other games similar in gun play to WW3s style have show this.

The TTK was already very low before hand and not near middle range TTK unless you counted only armor hits which gut shots were a very big issue because they messed up the TTK. The consistency issue was from that. The old TTK need a TTK increase and the hotbox for 3 shots was way to big which also caused what issue people though they were having with consistency.

 

Most people who play only play a little each week. Ive played more in of .4 TTK in 3 days then the average player have played in 2 weeks and I was forcing my self so I could give it a fair chance and honest opinion. Most people dont really understand game design or are high level players at really any games a mob of people dont equal the right answer.

At least 3 other high level players I know and talk too have already quit for now because of the TTK. These changes arent really fixing any issues and are just making players quit out of boredom. There is a reason why "hardcore" mode is the least played version of games that have them and are never played by the top tier players.

5-6 BTK in the chest is the around the golden zone for most games with some issues like plantesides 2 1/5 of a second server lag made them have to go higher to 6-8 TTK. Arcade works well and is the preferred TTK for the majority of competitive play for a reason.

When realism is pushed in games around TTK the gunplay always gets worst to counter the brokenness of the TTK. I would like more realism like removing the enemy markers and among other things that dont affect the gunplay which used to be very good but the mob like the game being easier so that's not going to happen.

 

9 hours ago, Borreh said:

2) Right now weapons loose stability with each shot after the 3rd, so the recoil increases up to the ~6-8th, at which it is the highest. Previously there was a major sweet spot with minimal recoil at around 2-6th shot so everyone was spraying all the time (we had threads about this). If it is really too much we'll consider lowering the max recoil or increasing the time it takes to reach it.

3) Currently armors have 2 different statistics: absorption and HP. Absorption is the amount of damage the armor takes before "passing it through" to the wearer. Bullets have their own AP value which decided how much of the damage bypasses the armor. This means stronger bullets penetrate and deal full damage while weaker ones (with less AP) are stopped. I think the current system is good enough in design but needs to be tweaked so that the armors are slightly more effective. Armors weakening in given locations would lead to random TTK for both the shooter and the wearer so while logical on paper, I don't think it would be enjoyable without a way to track who has a weakened armor plate where (and somehow showing it to every player).

4) That would require  a total rework of the game's shooting mechanics. It would also make the gunplay significantly more hardcore/realistic and it would be too alienating for many players. We're happy with the mechanics we have now and consider it being the matter of fine-tuning instead of rewriting the core gameplay rules. I love games with this mechanic as well but it would be a way too invasive change to the gameplay at this point (the game would play completely differently after it, as well).

2/ Gunplay was great before, it worked well enough and was very enjoyable which kept people interested in the game for a very long time. BF3 is know to be one of the best BFs and its all thanks to that style of gunplay which WW3 was similar too at launch.

3/ Old armor was quite balance and worked well. .2 patch was probably the best version of the game balance wise but we cant be sure because of hitreg issues in .3 which I felt .3 was the best feeling length wise of TTK so far because of that hitreg issue.

4/ The shooting would have to be changed a lot to work out with a very low TTK like this in order to not be broken. The game already had low TTK and was pushing it but tolerable enough to still play because of armor. The old gunplay felt realistic to shoot and very close to BF which is the main enjoyment part of the game.

You guys may like this for what ever reason but this is so unenjoyable that people are quitting. The people who bought the game a t launch can and will play with the old TTK or high to be similar to BF3 and not be too upset but when you make the game like this it completely ruins the game beyond playbility and wont hold people in game. The game is extremely generic and dumbed down now to the point I and other can not play.

 

You guys might like "hardcore" mode but its very easy and boring to a lot players who came here expecting a BF like game and completely ruins it for us. While a "arcade" version works for pretty much every one. No one would be quitting over a 6 shot to the chest game but this breaks the game. People were expecting a BF2/3 game with a twist on it and its own differences.

 

 

The reason I'm very adamant about this is because it makes the game dead for lots of us and it pretty much the end of our story with the game which was a hope for many people who backed you guys that we might now get a non mindless, non completely casual FPS game similar to BF.

 

You guys keep doing the whole 3 steps in one direction then 2 steps back when it doesn't work but then leave the issue their like with score/time limit changes because you listened to a mob to try and make the game more accessible at the cost of gameplay.

Putting more participation trophies into the game which can be tolerated, deviating from what we were hearing for months before launch about the streak system.

Still no fix for the gut shots which should have been fixed months ago and was a issue people were bringing up since launch and only briefly talked about last .3 as there might be balance changes. But now there might be some looking into gut shots when it should have been addressed a long time ago and was the amin reason to "issues like "consistency" and "armor not working well" which the mess of .4 TTK failed to fix.

 

So any changes you make I dont think you guys will revert to the previous version of the game or go in another direction. So The game will for ever the very low TTK and broken at some degree after this patch and some of the most dedicated players will continue to not play and probably quit for good. Hardcore mode splits the community but having the game solely "hardcore" mode just means the half that was split is gone now but a more arcade version means that those people would still be here anyways.

 

The games population is droping which is not all about this patch which should have been the greatest one and at least retain players but is so bad from the direction you are taking is so bad, people dont want to play the game any more. People who like were fine with the old version but still only play occasional amounts and ca.

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3 hours ago, TZoningHard said:

. Squad, RS, and Insurgency all put shooting in the back seat because they want to force other aspects while trying to be realistic meaning that the gunplay suffers a lot to have.

I cant speak for squad but I’ve put hundreds of hours in r6 and 10s in insurgency sandstorm and IMO the gun play is great in R6 and insurgency sandstorm, maybe those aren’t your style of game that doesn't mean the utter garbage. I think fortnite sucks so bad but there’s people that like that style of gameplay (which I don’t understand but ok) that doesn’t mean it’s bad, each game caters to a audience Arma 3 to larpers, cs:go is a great competitive game, R6S is a more “tactical” competitive game, fortnite (from what I understand) people who used to play minecraft all those games cater to a audience but they might not be your kinda game.

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So, I presume, TZoningHard still playing  TDM only? Because at least for me, TTK on mid to long distances is the same as it was in 0.3.

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Again so many generalizations and claims to speak the one and only truth. Like MOBBOB I like the gunplay of Insurgency and Siege a lot. It's okay not to like it but others do.

Bf3 btw had a 4 BTK up close for 5.56 ARs and 2 BTK for DMRs except for the SKS which lead to this wonderful 1 HK potential for DMRs. 5-6 BTK is quite a lot higher.

No one would stop playing if the BTK was 6 bullets to the chest? How do you know that?

The recoil might have issues due to some strange horizontal outliers for some guns but it is still so easy to control it. Constantly claiming to be such a high skill hardcore player and crying about having to control a tiny bit of recoil goes not well together. There are also very skilled players who like a low TTK and a strong recoil, just live with that.

I am all with you that the gut shot hitbox should be reduced because armor comes too seldomly into play in my opinion. And a steel plate which doesn't get penetrated by a 5.56 AR should absorb a lot of damage and at range I will truly have a hard time with a 5.56 AR to kill someone with heavy armor if I don't manage to land a face shot. But dude just for the sake of the forum can you stop pretending to be the only one knowing the only way how the game is to be?

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2 hours ago, HeiligeRobbe said:

No one would stop playing if the BTK was 6 bullets to the chest? How do you know that?

I took a break because of the high TTK combined with gut shots, it made getting the drop on someone less important and increased the chances that someone could play haphazardly and rely on flickshotting the stomach, either by luck or skill, to bail themselves out. Spraying people in the upper chest/head frequently only to die almost immediately to a gut shot was/is incredibly frustrating, for me at least. I could adapt to it and focus on the gut more, but honestly I play a lot of other shooters too and I don't want to ruin my play style in those games to fit WW3. High TTK and high available of meds can be very irritating too, especially with ranged fights.

 

The good thing about a lower TTK is you don't necessarily have to be super skilled and very quick to drop people, positioning and teamwork can get you far.

 

The only thing that bugs me about a lower TTK right now is how easy it is to stay almost completely hidden, you can peek a corner and only show a couple of grey head pixels in front of a grey wall.

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Yeah headglitching is sometimes really annyoing. Not sure how to deal best with it though, if it cannot be easily changed that the bullets exit the barrel instead of the eyes. Also lag and superbullets can be annoying but from Ragir's posts I conclude that they are already fully aware of that and working on a solution.

But most annoying I find the inconsistency of footstep sounds at the moment. Am I alone with that? In R6S and PUBG I got very used to listening to footsteps and sometimes they work absolutely fine in WW3. And then on the other hand I try to defend Warsaw B2 against a foe slowly peaking from behind one of the shelfs and another enemy sprints directly behind me to shoot me from like 1 m. I have no issue with dying quickly but in moments like that I think to myself that I should have been perfectly able to hear that guy coming. And it truly feels to me as if it depends on the ground I am walking on. Sometimes I can't hear my own steps and sometimes they are loud and clear.

Making footsteps a more reliable source of information together maybe with slightly reducing the speed of light players may also help to reduce the chaotic running and gunning. The former will alert a player with good gamesense early enough and the latter will extend the time someone might be running out in the open.

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9 minutes ago, HeiligeRobbe said:

But most annoying I find the inconsistency of footstep sounds at the moment. Am I alone with that?

You're not, I mentioned footsteps in the pre-alpha and as far as I can tell nothing has changed since then. At best the footsteps are very quiet, at worst they just seem completely silent even from a few yards away.

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We had multiple footstep sound tweaks but it seems we need more. We'll see what we can do.

 

What's the current dev feeling on gut shots? I still don't really understand why they're so devastating from either a realism or balance standpoint, it feels weird switching from another game to WW3 and having snipers focus on your gut or trying to spray down towards the stomach instead of up towards the head.

 

Gutshot meta is not something that was originaly intended to be a major feature and while we pretty much agree they're too easy to pull off the idea of careful shot placement is a very neat little feature of WW3 and we'd like to leave it in in one way or another, just maybe not the way it is now. We'll test a number of options. One especialy crazy idea was to add a 50-75% damage modifier to the gutshot area but have them cause a bleed effect that would be fixed by using any healing item. So there's that, wonder what you guys think about it :P

 

Any thoughts on the current way players can peek while remaining almost invisible? Often all I'll see of another player when getting shot at is a muzzle flash next to a corner. Ideally projectiles would originate from the gun barrel instead of the centre of the camera but I'm not sure how much of a rewrite that would be.


We know about this issue and once the new animation system is in place we'll be looking closer at the situation. We'll see what we can do.

Edited by Borreh
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I am not sure how the sounds are linked to the ground textures. Sometimes they are absolutely fine, e.g. Moscow Senate I can definitely tell if someone is coming from C1 being in the second floor close to a window. Inside the building though, if I am checking the B1 courtyard from a window a whole Squad could run around in the same room in my back and I wouldn't hear a damn thing.

 

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57 minutes ago, Borreh said:

One especialy crazy idea was to add a 50-75% damage modifier to the gutshot area but have them cause a bleed effect that would be fixed by using any healing item. So there's that, wonder what you guys think about it 

I offered vests with groin defence, but this idea is good in another way. 

50% instadmg and 50% bleeding out?

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4 hours ago, Borreh said:

Gutshot meta is not something that was originaly intended to be a major feature and while we pretty much agree they're too easy to pull off the idea of careful shot placement is a very neat little feature of WW3 and we'd like to leave it in in one way or another, just maybe not the way it is now. We'll test a number of options. One especialy crazy idea was to add a 50-75% damage modifier to the gutshot area but have them cause a bleed effect that would be fixed by using any healing item. So there's that, wonder what you guys think about it :P

Thanks for the reply! I do like the armor system for the exact reason of shot placement as well as being able to position yourself to absorb the worst of the damage, however placing shots specifically in the gut just feels off due to both the size of it and the proximity to the chest, as it often leads (in my experience anyway) to two players aiming centre of mass and the first to get a lucky hit to the gut wins. Here's how I think things could work instead:

- Face to face with enemy: Headshots are the fastest way to land the kill, however using a rifle against light armor is also relatively quick. If you're using an SMG/pistol/shotgun or they have heavy armor, then aiming for the face is almost mandatory or you can focus heavily on a low damage but unarmored area (gut, limbs).

- Side on from enemy: Headshots are still the fastest but the torso, while taking slightly longer to get the kill, is a bigger target. Armor and weapon caliber are almost irrelevant from this angle, i's all about DPS, making the high fire-rate SMG's and high damage shotguns particularly deadly here.

- Behind enemy: Headshots are again the fastest, but the torso again is a close second while also being a large target. I quite like the idea of a smaller armor plate on the back, making aiming dead centre of the back maybe less effective but leaving areas around that which can be hit. The equivalent of gut shots might actually work quite well here, as you've got the drop on the enemy and have earned the right to have a quick route to a kill. Having a small piece of back armor might make SMG's quite a viable flanking weapon too as you can more reliably full auto the smaller target area.

 

The one thing I'm not really sure about is helmets and where they fit in, given that headshots would generally be a reliable way of getting a kill which would make the different helmet tiers fairly indistinguishable from each other. One option would be a face hitbox, which allows you to get quick precise kills while also allowing helmets to maybe be unrealistically protective to give them more purpose than they have in real life. Low tier helmets could then only protect from shotgun pellets and SMG's, the mid tier could offer some minimal protection against rifles and the top tier might deflect multiple rifle round or even sniper rounds. Getting a bit off topic now but one thing I wish you guys had done is make the higher tier helmets visually stronger in some way, like by making the bulkier helmets only available if you have the highest armor tier, while the smaller helmets are only available at the lowest tier. Being able to see an enemy, know their helmet level and act accordingly would be great.

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On 2/14/2019 at 1:39 PM, Borreh said:

1) Gathering feedback on the recoil, some like it some hate it, we'll iterate in the future probably.

2) Right now weapons loose stability with each shot after the 3rd, so the recoil increases up to the ~6-8th, at which it is the highest. Previously there was a major sweet spot with minimal recoil at around 2-6th shot so everyone was spraying all the time (we had threads about this). If it is really too much we'll consider lowering the max recoil or increasing the time it takes to reach it.

3) Currently armors have 2 different statistics: absorption and HP. Absorption is the amount of damage the armor takes before "passing it through" to the wearer. Bullets have their own AP value which decided how much of the damage bypassess the armor. This means stronger bullets penetrate and deal full damage while weaker ones (with less AP) are stopped. I think the current system is good enough in design but needs to be tweaked so that the armors are slightly more effective. Armors weakening in given locations would lead to random TTK for both the shooter and the wearer so while logical on paper, I don't think it would be enjoyable without a way to track who has a weakened armor plate where (and somehow showing it to every player).

4) That would require  a total rework of the game's shooting mechanics. It would also make the gunplay siginificantly more hardcore/realistic and it would be too alienating for many players. We're happy with the mechanics we have now and consider it being the matter of fine-tuning instead of rewriting the core gameplay rules. I love games with this mechanic as well but it would be a way too invasive change to the gameplay at this point (the game would play completely differently after it, as well).

5) That's exactly how it is now. All scopes have their own sway that's affected by the player stance. If you think they're too weak then we'll consider increasing them a bit.

6) You can't shoot when jumping - But you can shoot when falling. We had shooting disabled for both jumping and falling up to a few patches ago but that made the game feel extremely clunky.

Thank you for the feedback.

I've noticed lack of (in my view) ADS sway on ide when holding long barrel weapons. I am PKM guy, I've noticed lack of barrel sway when ADS in standing position. It's easier to land first one kill shot when aiming from standing position. Both ironsights and 4x scope. Long barrel attachments on all rifles should have a bit more sway when ADS. 

Perhaps it could be good to try removing random bullet deviation and tie bullet exit with place where barrel is pointing. With that just a tad of recoil and weapon ads sway (not realistic one) you could also solve thing with how deadly bullets will be. Also detach weapon recoil from camera, so that weapon is "jumping" on the screen while camera has just a bit of shake. Not strong as weapon recoil itself. RS2: Vietnam has this but they took realistic approach to it. Imagine that but without stamina and "free-look" feature it has. 

With bullet exit tied with barrel end(no random deviation) plus friendly recoil strength, people would far less spray and use 1-3 burst fire. You can beef up armor and it will make those one shot kill in the guts and head/neck a bit harder. 

I would strongly suggest for the team to play RS2: Vietnam and to make a casual friendly gunplay. (By Removing weapon "flee look", reducing recoil, detaching weapon recoil from camera).

 

 

 

Edited by FoxFort

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Personally I don't know why people complain about low BTK because it has a few advantages:

1. If you are reasonably decent at FPS games you can catch people who are playing sloppily even if they may be better at tracking in more drawn out fights

2. Players are less inclined to sprint out into the open unless they have to

3. You can actually kill without scoping when rushing around corners in some cases. This is good because it stops people camping and requires those who wish to play defensively to pre-aim their angles. (why else would people use lasers?)

4. CQC has a really fast pace once the bullets start flying. If you don't want to be killed so quickly, stick around the more open objectives and make slower movement. The game rewards both playstyles

Although many have complained about problems with the BTK/TTK, this is actually fixed mostly by the recoil.

- Noscopes are hard to pull off at distance because of recoil

- It is hard to shoot at players who have chosen good cover (I'm not counting the issue where only the top part of the head needs to be around a corner because that's shit)

Overall, I like the new changes. main complaint that does really make sense is the lag one, and the one about armour. Steel armour plating should be able to resist ~ 3 rifle bullets, ~2 7.62*51 or 7.62*54, and ~5-6 9*19. Recently I have picked high level armour on a loadout and still been gunned down at a similar rate to with HDPE when being shot at with a SIG MPX. Either armour has to become lighter, or more effective.

A word on gutshots:

gutshots are not instantly deadly. Instead, they cause you to bleed out fairly quickly. The idea of having a bleeding out mechanic seems pretty good because it means that players in CQC will be punished if they shoot for the gut, but midrange attackers might be able to pull one off and provide enough suppressive fire to prevent the one being shot at to stand still and heal.

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3 hours ago, nubbits said:

Personally I don't know why people complain about low BTK because it has a few advantages:

1. If you are reasonably decent at FPS games you can catch people who are playing sloppily even if they may be better at tracking in more drawn out fights

2. Players are less inclined to sprint out into the open unless they have to

3. You can actually kill without scoping when rushing around corners in some cases. This is good because it stops people camping and requires those who wish to play defensively to pre-aim their angles. (why else would people use lasers?)

4. CQC has a really fast pace once the bullets start flying. If you don't want to be killed so quickly, stick around the more open objectives and make slower movement. The game rewards both playstyles

Although many have complained about problems with the BTK/TTK, this is actually fixed mostly by the recoil.

- Noscopes are hard to pull off at distance because of recoil

- It is hard to shoot at players who have chosen good cover (I'm not counting the issue where only the top part of the head needs to be around a corner because that's shit)

Overall, I like the new changes. main complaint that does really make sense is the lag one, and the one about armour. Steel armour plating should be able to resist ~ 3 rifle bullets, ~2 7.62*51 or 7.62*54, and ~5-6 9*19. Recently I have picked high level armour on a loadout and still been gunned down at a similar rate to with HDPE when being shot at with a SIG MPX. Either armour has to become lighter, or more effective.

A word on gutshots:

gutshots are not instantly deadly. Instead, they cause you to bleed out fairly quickly. The idea of having a bleeding out mechanic seems pretty good because it means that players in CQC will be punished if they shoot for the gut, but midrange attackers might be able to pull one off and provide enough suppressive fire to prevent the one being shot at to stand still and heal.

Low BTK is not bad when done correctly. Also you need a really good servers for Low BTK experience because then it all comes down to PING. Rubber banding is still happening for many players. It doesn't matter that I connect to ~45ping server when in there everyone is having PING issues. Now not speaking of PING issue which eventually will be fixed (I hope). Armor plates are now not done correctly. Almost like you are not having them, this could be related to PING issue since that lag creates "instant" death experience.

That bug in 0.1 where plates where super effective, I really liked it. It gave you a big confidence and landing that one bullet to face kill was rewarding. Now, it's a mindless run and gun experience. meh.

Edited by FoxFort
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Devs, plz, can I ask u 1 thing? Every time, when someone is passing the AT mine lying on the ground, let him see the the warning, like it's below. 

Spoiler

20190217222319_1.thumb.jpg.bc2060a7a5846ffeac911354535c0f50.jpg

Well, it was a joke.(No). Yes. No!

At least add something like "u can defuse enemy AT mines by pressing [F]  when aiming at them" to the recommendations on loading screens.

Just few hours ago my Marder blew up on mines even though there were 4 infantry players who had been capturing the CP for a long time before I've arrived. And 1 of them just runned past them few second before I've died on  those mines.

Edited by tynblpb

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@Borreh

Was there a obstacle keeping the team from fixing gutshots since its been a problem since launch and has been a issue with the community for a long time? Gunplay and other mechanics have been changed a lot but gut shot was always ignored and wasn't really talked about till mid way through .3 by the devs.

 

Besides that if you want a game that is semi-realsim TTK go ahead. The science behind it has shown it not to work and you are going to push out all the very dedicated competitive players who were looking forward to a alternative to BF.

 

Hardcore mode has always been the worst and less skilled mode among all skills including tactical ones since you can brute force every encounter to win. Its a shelter for bad players to make them feel better. Competitive players never played hardcore modes and tourneys were always core mode for a reason. The majority of players play good and average play core and the hardcore mode players always end up sucking at core while core players do better then most hardcore players in their own game mode.

Insurgency, RS, Arma, and Squad are all fun games but are not competitive games and are played for the experience not to be the best you can. I have a bunch of time in the original Insurgency and a few on sandstorm and they are casual games that are fun if you are playing casually but suffer at competitive level and is why it is not popular even in the insurgency community which is filled with RPers who bought the game only to play Bots. Still the more arcade and closest to being able to be competitive but compare the popularity of bots vs competitive I:SS and you will see that its small and not cared for my most of the community that would rather play a realism experience that is more of a story with friends.

People play Insurgency, RS, Arma, and Squad casually even if they play a lot its mostly for the experience and roleplay which is half of the people who bough Insurgency do is play bots.

 

The game is utter broken when playing at 100 latency (which is every other game at times in NA) to where we get shot immediately as some one rounds corner and some times even before we can see them which is broken since you cant really stop or counter that and just have to hop by chance that you can turn the corner first. At 100 latency and more the game comes down to chance which higher TTK mitigates and is a reason a lot of games have higher TTK because it reduced the randomness factor.

 

There is science and examples of other games that if used should have never let these changes happened because you cant get past the technical issues from lag and reaction time with out making people not shoot as soon as they see a person which causes issues still. Its bad game design and will not work and has shown to not work.

 

I was playing .3 almost every day even if I crashed 3 times in a hour I would get back on because the gunplay great and better then most games out there. Gameplay was solid outside of a few issues that were properly addressed and only needed tweaking.

Now I dont even bother to play because the experience is bad and the gameplay is ruined for players seeking skill based/competitive gameplay.

You killed the game for a lot of people seeking a alternative to BF and the people who praise you for it were playing anyway.

 

(Started out as a question but the game is still ruined to the point its unenjoyable, and last time the game was ruined like with the match length it took a very long time and community push to get that reverted and its wasn't even a full revert after shown it was broken and people complaining about it every other day.)

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I did not even finish reading your whole post. RS is not competitive? Players play it casually? Are you talking about R6 Siege?

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9 hours ago, TZoningHard said:

Insurgency, RS, Arma, and Squad are all fun games but are not competitive games and are played for the experience not to be the best you can. I have a bunch of time in the original Insurgency and a few on sandstorm and they are casual games that are fun if you are playing casually but suffer at competitive level and is why it is not popular even in the insurgency community which is filled with RPers who bought the game only to play Bots. Still the more arcade and closest to being able to be competitive but compare the popularity of bots vs competitive I:SS and you will see that its small and not cared for my most of the community that would rather play a realism experience that is more of a story with friends.

I disagree with this. Because these games are heavily experience oriented with long learning curve. Not to mention that brute force here usually ends us everyone on your team wiped out. BF3's hardcore mode as well. It is true that Insurgency, RS, Arma and Squad are not made for competitive sport level of Counter-Strike or R6:Siege. Usually people from "hardcore" games tend to easier adapt to casual games like CS than other way around.  

For WW3 game, on the long run there should be 2 difficultly levels, normal and hardcore. Just like in BF3. 

Latency is currently the greatest issue that WW3 has, because with current fast TTK, game feels "broken".

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On 2/12/2019 at 7:22 AM, TZoningHard said:

New TTK is pretty shallow and feels really RNG based now.

The guns felt so good before and shot realisticly. You cant have realistic weapon control and low TTK in a game it doesnt work because the game play becomes broken and high tier play becomes focused on abusing lag to see other players first.

Positioning matters less now because you and crutch on seeing players first to insta kill other players, teamwork matters less since one player can demolish 10 people in a row in a braindead manner, tactics is just making sure to ADAD strafe on a corner or run straight through a door way to abuse lag so you can shoot another player before they see you, killing is super casual now no effort required just spray at them in hipfire get kills out to 60m, spray as you round a corner, spray aiming down sights its so meaningless to aim anymore and you dont have to think about how to shoot or make conservative shots when the near endless amount of ammo now.

Overall the game has became very one dimensional, shallow, and narrow in view. Less tactical more CoD now where you turn off your brain run around shooting people before they see you. Its not hard or requires any real thought to have positioning or play "tactical" but now you removed the effort from killing another players resting the game solely onto who sees who first.

The direction this game has gone took away reasons to do good in a match and the incentives for team work with steak handouts which are just cheese in the first place, Its becoming just another boring casual shooter that will only entertain people for a couple hours a week at most.

Ive forced myself to play around 20 hours of the new TTK split between the pte and live to give it a fair chance. I have over 500 hours in game and my enjoyment has decreased as the game has gotten more casual and carebear but it wasn't as so bad to stop playing till now. Its too boring to play right now and I just sat it down and aint wasting my time on it anymore. Kept taking away the in game incentives and needs to think and play as a team each patch. Ill of play something that isn't so braindead for now and wait to see the direction of the game.

 

I fail to understand how a higher TTK leads to more tactical and skillful/thought provoking play, as that is clearly the opposite based on the typical gameplay found in high TTK shooters, which generally just end up as a giant mess of people bunched up together with shots flying everywhere and no punishment for positioning or strategy. 

 

Look at Halo, Overwatch, Fortnight, etc. The games have their merit, but I'd hardly call my experience in any of those games to be anything close to tactical or strategic. Right now WW3 is certainly very arcadey, but that's more a function of the mode than the TTK, since increasing TTK only serves to make the game cater towards casuals and should be relegated to non-military shooters, where it makes sense that the stupid sci-fi outfit you're wearing can amazingly just tank 30 shots from a machine gun without care. 

 

Recon mode with one life should adequately slow down the pace to require more thought. Increasing TTK serves no purpose but to make a more braindead experience, since there's no longer any danger in being in the open or being caught off guard, since there's now time to simply get behind cover or out of the area despite taking multiple shots because there is no punishment for bad movement with high TTK, and there's no punishment for making any mistakes since a mistake under high TTK doesn't mean death. 

Edited by Zvolteh
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I absolutely agree. Complaining about ADAD strafing and demanding a higher TTK and lower recoil is also a bit self contradictory. To slow down the pace and make the game a bit less arcady it would maybe help more to reduce the player speed than increase the TTK.

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On 2/18/2019 at 12:26 AM, TZoningHard said:

@Borreh

Was there a obstacle keeping the team from fixing gutshots since its been a problem since launch and has been a issue with the community for a long time? Gunplay and other mechanics have been changed a lot but gut shot was always ignored and wasn't really talked about till mid way through .3 by the devs.

Long story short: The changes done were designed to mostly put the game into a better place in terms of overall gameplay balance and figure out what works best for the type of game we want while fixing biggest issues (e.g. random TTK that often went crazy in earlier builds or finding the best way to integrate armors into the gameplay without them being OP or obstrusive). We're still not there yet but once the game is in a satisfactory spot balance-wise we'll iron out the details like gutshots.


That and we never strictly considered it a problem - It is disputable what their role should be and should they be promoted or discarded, in the end we pushed the overall balance and we'll solve the gutshot situation once the "feel" of combat will be somewhat final.

Another major issue is that, simply put, most if not all of the current gunplay/balance changes were done through the design team alone without any new coding or mechanics while the other teams were busy with lifesaving issues such as stability, netcode, performance et cetera which are, obviously, way more important. Gutshots will require at least some code/model changes and, as with other such issues, it was pushed back in favor or more pressing matters. Things are much smoother now so after Recon is out we'll focus on major mechanical improvements. 

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The discussion is going on already for quite some time and I just wanted to add my conclusive thoughts about gunplay, spawns and some miscellaneous things which admittedly contain a number of propositions. If this topic still draws attention I would love to hear other opinions about my thoughts. :) ... This has become quite a lenthy post to be honest :D sorry for that. 

Spawns

The chat in game is often crowded with complaints concerning the spawns. While many of those complaints are whining I think there is still room for improvements regarding the spawn system. One problem I sometimes run into is similar to the following: A group of players tries to attack A1 on Berlin WZ coming from A2. Two or three players take the courtyard and two more the hallway to the right. Being aware of defenders the players approach slowly and methodically but suddenly a defender spawns in the hallway behind the two attackers. Out of pure chance the push can be stopped by a single player.

Something similar might happen the other way round: Because a point is not under attack I spawn there but at the specific spawn point I spawn directly in front of an enemy ready to mow me down. This happens for example on Moscow if you spawn in the crate between A1 and A2.

A third issue I have with some spawn points is their poorly biased location. E.g. again, on Berlin WZ there is a spawn point linked to B1 that lets me spawn a bit south of Brandenburg Gate. If I am in the team starting south that’s not a problem but if I am in the team spawning north I may end in a situation like above where I am in the back of attacking enemies. In anyway I have to expose myself to the opposing team’s starting location where more often than not players will come from. That spawn for the northern team is troublesome I would say.

These are of course only examples which are not representative as often the spawning works just fine, but I had an idea which may help to further improve the system: By now there are several random spawns for each objective and as soon as an objective is being capped by the other team the spawns are disabled. My proposition is to not to let players spawn randomly but choose one of the spawn points. (If I want to defend Berlin B1 against a push from B2 I definitely don’t want to spawn near the plane.) I think this system would be even better with different spawn points for each team but for now I think the existing ones will do.

So far the system I described is highly vulnerable to spawn killing but to prevent that a simple additional mechanic could maybe do the job. Specific spawn points become disabled if enemies are in the close proximity (how close would be to determined and maybe vary between different spawn points). Thus, if we go back to the push from A2 to A1 on Berlin the spawn in the hallway would be disabled. Defenders would know about the proximate direction of the push and attackers can make sure that enemies won’t pop out in their back.

I am sure my proposition has a lot of drawbacks which I fail to see at the moment but if carefully done I think it may help to reduce the spawnkilling frustration and randomness. Pushes and large flanks could be done more methodically as an attacking team can take out single spawn points before approaching the capping are itself (which still would lead to all spawn points being disable). This might also incentivize Defenders a bit more as extra BPs could potentially be introduced for freeing spawn points.

Recoil

The TTK left aside I would say that the recoil has been the most heatedly debated topic regarding the gunplay since 0.4 has been released. While I absolutely don’t think that the overall recoil is too high I can see where some of the complaints are coming from. The vertical recoil is easily manageable and could be significantly higher on some weapons and so is the horizontally recoil for most of the time until one of those random and harsh horizontal kicks comes into play. I for myself still think these horizontal kicks might stem from server desync or something similar simply because they happen inconsistently and irregularly which increases the amount of frustration they bring. 4 out of 5 times a 8 round spray on someone at 60 m with an AK-15 will do the job (factoring in some normal misses) but 1 out of 5 time the last hit is denied but a sudden kick to the side which only occurs in about that many bursts. If that is in fact intentional I am not too much a fan of it because it will limit the extent by which a weapon can be mastered.

Regardless I would propose some general changes about the recoil which may also help to differentiate weapon categories from another. Let’s go back to the AK-15. By now the vertical recoil is easily controlled so keeping the weapon vertically stable is not a problem. But horizontal randomness will reduce my precision no matter what I do. Thus, a certain level of effectiveness is easily reached with almost every AR in game. Unpredictable kicks to the side will throw off the skilled player as much as the casual newcomer who has no struggle to control the vertical recoil after only a couple of hours in game.

My suggestion: Give ARs an even more distinctive recoil path than we have now but increase the vertical recoil by a noticeable margin. The, idea would be that it takes more hours to fully master an AR extending the range at which a player will confidently spray enemies or land a bodyshot – headshot combo.

For SMGs on the other hand I would propose a vertical recoil similar to what it is now but give them slightly more horizontal recoil. In this case the idea would be that in CQC even with horizontal kicks (soft ones!) you would not be thrown off target and at the same time recoil compensation would be easier due to the reduced vertical strength of it. At longer ranges the horizontal recoil will lead to more missing shots firing a long burst. This should give the SMGs a more distinct place as short to medium range weapons while ARs shine on medium to somewhat longer ranges.

Battle rifles being more or less upgunned ARs would follow a similar approach with maybe even less horizontal randomness and more vertical recoil so that it truly feels like taming a strong powerful weapon.

Another more general idea: By now crouching or going prone has an impact on weapon sway but not on the recoil. I wouldn’t mind if there was a small differentiation between the stances recoil wise.

Weapon Sway

Speaking of the weapon sway I think it’s something that holds back the semi-auto capacities on long range. Maybe I just don’t get the hang of it but trying to quickly land consecutive shot with a high-powered scope sometimes feels awful. Often, I have the impression that my shot didn’t land where the cross hair was placed and compensating for the recoil and ongoing sway to land a second shot is sometimes a matter of luck depending on the phase of the sway. For bolt action rifles this might not be as difficult as only a single shot is needed most of the time, but I think having the possibility to steady the scope for a short time would be a nice addition.

If not manually by assigning an extra button I think one could also make use of the already implemented adrenaline mechanic. The higher the adrenaline the higher the scope sway and with low adrenaline the scope sway becomes much less pronounced?

Miscellaneous

Foot steps have been mentioned a couple of times already. If they become a more reliable source of information blind rushes should be punished more.

I feel like movement speed is slightly too high. I know the maps are large, but the freaky fast velocity also promotes running and gunning given how fast one can move between cover.

 

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