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tynblpb

Let's talk about reduced ammopool.

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Currently in 0.6PTE version of WW3 the total ammopool player has is 90(30 loaded and 60 stored).

If I'm not mistaken, majority of players said that it's not enough. I'm partially agree with this opinion. 

Why partially? Because few hours ago I've played Warsaw WZ on PTE. Running with SA80 and it's high RPM means u will be almost always short on ammo. Luckily there were always 1 or 2 decent players running with me who had ammo kits.  I  healed them, they supplied me. Teemwurk.?  But extrapoints for healing or supplies weren't the thing that made me think that current radically decreased ammopool and ammo replenishment speed isn't that bad thing.

Because with decreased ammo pool ppl have to look for ammopacks more frequently. And replenishment speed forces them to stay near ammopack or guy who is carrying ammopack for a longer time. Especially when everyone is low on ammo but ammopack isn't ready to be dropped. So it's usually 3-5 players who stick together and go capturing or defending CPs. And even if there was 1 guy with ammopack, eventually some guy with different kit will come closer as the running out of ammo is pretty fast now.  The further - the more. Guy with ammopack has some kind of cumulative effect as the ppl are slowing when refilling ammo, and less ppl now go lonewolfing.

Slower the gameplay, less run'n'gunning, more group based firefights.

One or two drop ammopacks, guys with medpacks get closer, heal others if needed, and only then fully healed and with restored ammo group goes to another CP. And these players even weren't in the 1 squad.

I  typed in other themes that ppl need to be forced to do right things. Well this 1 round was when attempt to force ppl to play together actually worked.

But there is one problem. We are talking about PTE where mostly are playing ppl that have 100-200(400-500) hours in game. They drop ammo if u ask them. But there was obviously new guy who did understand what I want from him only after I shouted that I need ammo for a 4th time and shot him with pistol for a 3rd time.

Even if teamplay is forced by gameplay mechanics it still can be broken by ppl who don't do anything. Doesn't rly matter either ignorant they are or simply don't know what to do...

I kinda liked this forced teamwork match today, but don't know, will be there similar experience in the next matches.

For those, who prefer lonewolfing and don't want to rely on some randoms, and don't like current limited ammopool - there is solution.

If u r thinking about adding another 30FMJ rounds to ur pool by using Alternate Ammo I'm gonna disappoint u a little. Unfortunately there is 1 unpleasant bug. In 0.6.6 FMJ Alternate Ammo ISN'T WORKING(1 exception - SCAR-H). If u add FMJs to ur ammo u'll stay with ur 30+60 reduced ammo. Yes, u can always choose AP or HP ammo, but there is another was to increase ur ammopool.

U have to choose drum mags. And u'll see that u have 2 full drum mags for all assault rifles. 5.56 rifles have 120rounds total . 7.62 - 150. And if it's still not enough u add to this 30 AP/HP rounds and now u have ur 150/180 rounds. Now u can go lonewolfing all u want. Don't know was it missed by devs or what, but those who don't like reduced ammopool feel free to use. In the same time  @weedtimecount this as the bugreport, plz.

 

So, what is ur opinion of forcing ppl to stick together and do the teamwork by reducing the ammopool and it's replenishment speed?

Was ur experience negative or was it vise versa?

Edited by tynblpb
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same here - partially agree.

For sniper rifles its ok: 10/20 ammo is enough and forces you to be good sniper (or use ammo pack)

For assault rifles its not enough - high rpm + sometimes hitreg issues or penetration bugs force you to run from one ammo pack to another. And restoring 9 ammo per second (ammo pack restores 10% per use) makes it even worse. 30/90 or 30/120 is good imo. On most vests we see 3-4 mags:

1253951558_.png.d351b201d0940309a461ffec587496f3.png

 

And the top of that: SHOTGUNS. 8/18 for MCS is almost ok, but 8/24 would be better. But for semi-auto VEPR12 (which is bugged btw) ammopool is way too small - 10/20 (but mostly it is 10/0, 10/10 or even 4/0 right now :D )

Edited by Atway
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1) AK-74 for example, goes with 4 magazines with it, so 120 ammopool is semi-realistic.

2) I'd prefer to choose type of all my ammo, instead of only one magazine.

3) Even if you have 75-round drum, you still have only 30 Alternative ammo, that's strange.

4) And 9 ammo per second restore it's too slow (for alternative ammo even slower). Mb replenish ammo as full magazine (30, for example), but some more time is required for this.

Edited by †FeuerEuphorie†

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So I've spoken with @Ragir about that (a week ago?) last time and it's been done for a reason - Teamwork, but as you say it won't going to work: unless you play all the time with your mates. I personally play since the EA only with med-packs, because I had enough ammo before I died and always I managed to find some, but it's never been too much. 120 overall ammo for rifles was reasonable, not too much not too low.

You can choose drum mags, but I noticed, they really slow when reloading and give additional weight, so I back to standard ones.

Maybe stupid solution, but set max amount of carried mags (4-5), each mag will have a certain weight?  You will choose how much you want to carry.

You can't force people to play with ammo packs if they don't want, there definitely will be more gadgets which you can choose in the future and then what, people can't use them, because game force them to play with ammo packs, maybe it seems ridiculous but ammo is the main thing in this game....

A good idea is also to let people carry two gadgets at the same time, for example, First Aid Kit you can put in one of the 15 pockets which you have on your uniform, backpack with ammo you can put on the back, there is huge difference with sizes of it in real life, why it has to be exchangeable? Otherwise, this backpack which we carry all the time seems to be empty, what we putting it there now - Tablet and Syringe? it's huge, we can load a lot more in there.

Anyway, I think it's Designers team is responsible for this, so maybe @Borreh will say a couple of words.

I will mention this issue in reports @tynblpb

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4 minutes ago, weedtime said:

Maybe stupid solution, but set max amount of carried mags (4-5), each mag will have a certain weight?  You will choose how much you want to carry.

the smartest solution tbh

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All I can add is that we're going to fix the way ammo refreshing works, so it's not some random +7 +13, but full mags. It should be faster for sure.

Also, the ammo request is not finished yet, we'll make it much more visible and obvious for people - that's all I know :P

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31 minutes ago, Ragir said:

All I can add is that we're going to fix the way ammo refreshing works, so it's not some random +7 +13, but full mags. It should be faster for sure.

Also, the ammo request is not finished yet, we'll make it much more visible and obvious for people - that's all I know :P

so maybe postpone reducing ammopool till its done? Or reduce it just a little, not 2-2.5 times less

Edited by Atway

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YEA AMMO GIMME AMMO, I wish the player count would refresh like the ammo pack I'm just sayin.

Edited by xIWaRcRiMeSIx

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5 hours ago, Atway said:

so maybe postpone reducing ammopool till its done? Or reduce it just a little, not 2-2.5 times less

We want to put out the ammo replenish fix as soon as we can, hopefully not long after 0.6 hits live. We'll see what feedback we'll get, previous ammo pool was stupid large but we don't want to go into any BFV-ish exhaustion mechanics. If it will be deemed too small by the majority we'll try adding one more mag per gun (with exceptions) but there's enough ways to replenish ammo already (I think more than in BF?...) that it shouldn't be an issue. Hopefuly.

Edited by Borreh

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2 часа назад, Borreh сказал:

but there's enough ways to replenish ammo already (I think more than in BF?...) that it shouldn't be an issue

In BF1942/Vietnam there were crates with ammo and medicine. Why don't add something like this to thw WW3 but with 1 condition: crates with supplies are unlocked only if ur team holds both parts of the CP. These boxes can work as supply crates. More reasons to attack and hold control points.

20190511095521_1.thumb.jpg.af811b70f3173b79a246829112d6cfea.jpg

9 часов назад, weedtime сказал:

Maybe stupid solution, but set max amount of carried mags (4-5), each mag will have a certain weight?  You will choose how much you want to carry.

And what to do with 10 rounds mags then?.. But, since nobody uses them we can always forget about them.?

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11 часов назад, weedtime сказал:

Maybe stupid solution, but set max amount of carried mags (4-5), each mag will have a certain weight?  You will choose how much you want to carry.

It is not stupid, but what to do with drums? As a drum user, I will be pleasured even, if I have only two drums (one loaded, and one extra), but can choose type of ammo (both AP, HP or at least FMJ).

Why don't he have an option to choose primary ammo type, not only additional?? Same as for vehicle guns ammo.

P.S. The only weapons, those uses full drum (60 rounds) for additional ammo, are SMG.

Edited by †FeuerEuphorie†

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3 hours ago, †FeuerEuphorie† said:

Why don't he have an option to choose primary ammo type

You should be able to add more FMJ ammo to your weapon by selecting it from additional ammo, this should work already :P

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9 минут назад, Ragir сказал:

You should be able to add more FMJ ammo to your weapon by selecting it from additional ammo, this should work already

Well, I suppose, you are joking, because I meant something different=)

For example, I have AK-15 with two drums. As first drum I take Hollow Point (primary) and as second drum I take Armor Piercing (secondary). Without any FMJ in my loadout.

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5 hours ago, tynblpb said:

In BF1942/Vietnam there were crates with ammo and medicine. Why don't add something like this to thw WW3 but with 1 condition: crates with supplies are unlocked only if ur team holds both parts of the CP. These boxes can work as supply crates. More reasons to attack and hold control points.

20190511095521_1.thumb.jpg.af811b70f3173b79a246829112d6cfea.jpg

And what to do with 10 rounds mags then?.. But, since nobody uses them we can always forget about them.?

Mag size will determine how fast do you resupply them - Say, taking a 30 round mag from the bag would take 4-5 seconds while a 10 round mag 1-2, which could make a life or death difference in a rapid CQB encounter when you're low on ammo. We'll be rebalancing attachment weight to increase the difference individual selections have, and it's pretty probable we'll make 10 round mags absurdly light to give you some reason to take them.


As per ways to replenish ammo: We already have ammo bags (which do not define your class/abilities/weapons like in other games so there's less of a reason not to take them if you need them), drones can have ammo bags on them, you can take extra ammo before game starts, helicopter drones can drop ammo bags, and there's talk of adding additional options as well. We did think about adding them in crates on points but there's already a fun dynamic when often a team that captured the area fills it with supplies to restock, we wouldn't want to take away from it.

The ~120 ammo pool caused you to almost never run out of your bullets or be forced to switch to secondary and given the amount of options we have we decided for a radical reduction. There were a lot of teamplay mechanics that did hurt because of that. And yes, everyone was/is running around with med packs - Possibly because no one needed ammo packs. Do you know we have equipment packs as well? :P By now they restore a lot of stuff but we'll probably be moving explosives and rare ammo types (e.g. Tor) there as well to make players using such weapons be more commited to their actions (e.g.: if you want an RPG in your squad, you need someone with an equipment bag).


We're trying to promote teamwork using soft changes like this, we'll see how it changes the game, if it won't work we'll look for other options.


We are willing to rework how gadget selection works to increase utility of some of them but given how much of a major and invasive change that would be we'll try simpler changes first to increase diversity - We do appreciate we're one of the very few games when everyone wants to be the healer but a squad 80% full of players with med packs is not the sort of teamwork we're working towards ;)

 

Edited by Borreh
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45 минут назад, Borreh сказал:

Mag size will determine how fast do you resupply them - Say, taking a 30 round mag from the bag would take 4-5 seconds while a 10 round mag 1-2, which could make a life or death difference in a rapid CQB encounter when you're low on ammo.

Looks pretty)

 

45 минут назад, Borreh сказал:

We'll be rebalancing attachment weight to increase the difference individual selections have, and it's pretty probable we'll make 10 round mags absurdly light to give you some reason to take them.

But people will still use drums... because they are 60-75 ammo drums)

 

46 минут назад, Borreh сказал:

Do you know we have equipment packs as well? :P By now they restore a lot of stuff but we'll probably be moving explosives and rare ammo types (e.g. Tor) there as well to make players using such weapons be more commited to their actions (e.g.: if you want an RPG in your squad, you need someone with an equipment bag).

 

It was suggested a lot by me, and not only for replenish RPG by Equipment Pack. So it's nice, if it will be that.

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3 часа назад, Borreh сказал:

As per ways to replenish ammo: We already have ammo bags (which do not define your class/abilities/weapons like in other games so there's less of a reason not to take them if you need them), drones can have ammo bags on them, you can take extra ammo before game starts, helicopter drones can drop ammo bags, and there's talk of adding additional options as well. We did think about adding them in crates on points but there's already a fun dynamic when often a team that captured the area fills it with supplies to restock, we wouldn't want to take away from it.

 

Цитата

drones can have ammo bags on them, helicopter drones can drop ammo bags

Maaaaaany times I was looking at supply boxes in HeliDrone customization menu:

"To pick or not to pick?" -200-300BP extra cost? - "Nah,? not to pick".

So I didn't see anyone to drop dem supplies out of HeliDrone. Me myself did it once or twice for the whole time. "I'm Death from the Sky, why should I carry and drop supplies for those petty earthworms?". If it was free of charge, then I would have thought about taking supplies with me. About ground drones... it's to high chance to be rolled over when trying to take supplies out of them.

Цитата

 you can take extra ammo before game starts

I do.

Цитата

often a team that captured the area fills it with supplies to restock

It's happening. But, unfortunately, only when server is close to fully populated. When u r playing 10v10 sometimes there is nobody in 50+m area around u. And where then u can get ur ammo?

Me personally would like to see supply drops. Like the heli is dropping quadrocycle, let it drop supply crate for some amount of BPs.

Summarising: there is no such a problem to find ammo pack when there is 20v20 fight on the server even with current heavily reduced ammopool. But with player count drop problems with finding ammo are growing exponentially. Unfortunately.

Цитата

By now they restore a lot of stuff but we'll probably be moving explosives and rare ammo types (e.g. Tor) there as well to make players using such weapons be more commited to their actions (e.g.: if you want an RPG in your squad, you need someone with an equipment bag).

Good to hear.

UPD. Tried to equip ammo pack when flying HeliDrone. No. There will be no teamwork as the pack does not reload...?

 

Edited by tynblpb

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The ammo at start is NOT an issue... the issue is when you have some noob spawn off you and take off running, while you are screaming for ammo...!

It's an epidemic, as I can be screaming for ammo (using in game commands, or targeting players). I've even shot at my own team mate to get their attention, with them just ignorant of their duty and having clue and run off leaving me with no ammo...

 

FWIW: It has been a gaming standard and an oldschool discipline, that when you spawn you drop supplies/health kits, before you even move.  

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On 5/11/2019 at 8:00 AM, weedtime said:

Maybe stupid solution, but set max amount of carried mags (4-5), each mag will have a certain weight?  You will choose how much you want to carry.

I am a big fan of this idea because it allows players more freedom with their weapon design, assault rifles kitted out as DMRs can reduce weight by carrying less magazines.

On 5/11/2019 at 11:35 PM, Borreh said:

Mag size will determine how fast do you resupply them - Say, taking a 30 round mag from the bag would take 4-5 seconds while a 10 round mag 1-2, which could make a life or death difference in a rapid CQB encounter when you're low on ammo. We'll be rebalancing attachment weight to increase the difference individual selections have, and it's pretty probable we'll make 10 round mags absurdly light to give you some reason to take them.

An idea for ten rounders (it might not work):

players who prone with a 10 round magazine have a much lower silhouette, so they are less visible to enemies.  If you're carrying a larger magazine, then your character holds your weapon flat against the ground (on its side) while prone, but raises it to be vertical when scoping so their shoulders are higher off the ground. This way, builds with 10 round magazines for ARs can actually be effective because they reduce visibility for enemies. Because WW3 is comparatively a low TTK game compared to other titles like Battlefield, having a less visible character could be a big advantage.

-- edit --

If it takes more than half a mag to kill an enemy, then I'm never going to equip that. Currently max BTK on PTE for AR calibers is 8 for steel armour which not that many people use, but it's a hard choice.

Edited by nubbits

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Reduced Ammo and new refill amount sucks very much. Hope they change it to sth better and change the amount of ammo one starts with, cause right now almost everybody is running around with an ammo pack.
 

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On 5/11/2019 at 8:35 AM, Borreh said:

Mag size will determine how fast do you resupply them - Say, taking a 30 round mag from the bag would take 4-5 seconds while a 10 round mag 1-2, which could make a life or death difference in a rapid CQB encounter when you're low on ammo. We'll be rebalancing attachment weight to increase the difference individual selections have, and it's pretty probable we'll make 10 round mags absurdly light to give you some reason to take them.


As per ways to replenish ammo: We already have ammo bags (which do not define your class/abilities/weapons like in other games so there's less of a reason not to take them if you need them), drones can have ammo bags on them, you can take extra ammo before game starts, helicopter drones can drop ammo bags, and there's talk of adding additional options as well. We did think about adding them in crates on points but there's already a fun dynamic when often a team that captured the area fills it with supplies to restock, we wouldn't want to take away from it.

The ~120 ammo pool caused you to almost never run out of your bullets or be forced to switch to secondary and given the amount of options we have we decided for a radical reduction. There were a lot of teamplay mechanics that did hurt because of that. And yes, everyone was/is running around with med packs - Possibly because no one needed ammo packs. Do you know we have equipment packs as well? :P By now they restore a lot of stuff but we'll probably be moving explosives and rare ammo types (e.g. Tor) there as well to make players using such weapons be more commited to their actions (e.g.: if you want an RPG in your squad, you need someone with an equipment bag).


We're trying to promote teamwork using soft changes like this, we'll see how it changes the game, if it won't work we'll look for other options.


We are willing to rework how gadget selection works to increase utility of some of them but given how much of a major and invasive change that would be we'll try simpler changes first to increase diversity - We do appreciate we're one of the very few games when everyone wants to be the healer but a squad 80% full of players with med packs is not the sort of teamwork we're working towards ;)

 

I dont think your CQB theory willl work out that way.

I remember back to .3 ammo bugs which got people to run ammo box instead of health then seek out teammates with health. Its made the game a bit more interesting and you know cared about teammates and I did go out of my way to guard a newb who had the health because he didn't know about the ammo bug. It was hard to get health from a lot of these players who only had it because it was default.

Im for a lower ammo pool because running around mindlessly farming bad players in a casual game gets boring but the problems I see with lower ammo are dealing with UGVs.

UGVs take 100 rounds of ammo to kill from a single player, If a player cant kill a UGV even with the long time it takes to kill then they could just roll over single players and then go back to repair. Bigger issue is will a player want to expend some of their ammo to do partial damage to a UGV when they dont have enough ammo to kill it or enough ammo left over to fight against other players.

After that the Helo is a huge ammo wasters. takes near 100 rounds to kill if they hit so players will not want to deter the Helo when there rapidly decreasing ammo pool is getting wasted to deter the hello from farming players. Similar to not wanting to shoot the UGV because it will leave you with little to no ammo.

 

Im fine with the ammo reduction in either way. Go ahead.

You could start players out with full ammo if they spawn at homebase or at the start of the match as if they came into the battle fully kitted but started to run out of ammo.

Would add resupply streaks as the streaks ingame are not really fun and somepeople enjoy the shooting over vehicles. I also dont expect a Helo to stop trying to kill people to give us ammo like how it is for people running around with the ammo bug who hog it to them selfs because giving other people ammo means they will compete with you for kills.

Thats onething I notices in .3 people hogged their ammo bags and plenty of time Ive heard people say they didnt want to give other players ammo because they would get less kills if the teammates had ammo.

 

Trying to make a reason for everything isn't a good way to go about it. Like trying to make a reason to use burst when there isnt a real life reason and burst weapons are hard to handle IRL and in games because of having to guess and control the sudden recoil is harder then expecting a continuous recoil that you control.

Burst on m16s are used for a shotgun effect with a squad firing all at once to area targets 800m out against groups of people or lightly armored vehicles outside effective range shooting a target. Its a area of effect concept.

For the 10 rounders just because you can have them and you do doesn't mean you need to try or can and make them viable. The only reason to use 10 rounders in IRL is to be a smaller target while prone and you usually are using a semi auto sniper with a 20 rounder. In WW3 aiming doesn't matter so making you self a smaller target is not going to have a better effect and going prone makes you a unmoving target even if you are smaller.

Having the smaller the mag the faster you ADS and switch weapons along with what would be hard to put into the game of being lower prone profile would be the best choice.

 

I dont see a reason to have the 10 rnders in the game. 20s make some sense and you can make them really fast at reloading, switching, and, or ADSing.

 

Should really lower the weight of everything so we can carry multiple weapons again. Have the weight come from the gadgets. IDK when you guys are if you are still going to let use choose 2 gadgets but no reason to use most gadgets if you are running out of ammo because then people will ony carry ammo with a few medics around here and there.

You can even have it to were you can choose the ammo kit twice to lower the cool down and lengthen it for if you caryy only one ammo pack.

Adding weight to gadget then allowing us to carry two could let players equip a firstaid kit to the secondary slot for low weight but it will have a long cool down for being secondary. Players then might have to wait a minute for the health but have a way to not be too reliant on having to run health.

 

So primary gadget carries two expendable gadgets, and has a modest cooldown of the refreshing gadgets. The secondary slot allows long cool downs and one expendable so you cant dabble with having one c4 or if you want 3 c4 you put it in both slots. Then weight will punish you for being greedy.

I liked when the weight system punished greed instead of preventing players from using items.

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28 минут назад, TZoningHard сказал:

let players equip a firstaid kit to the secondary slot for low weight but it will have a long cool down for being secondary.

I like this part. Secondary gadgets having something like 1min cooldown sounds pretty good, IMO.

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There are plans for tiered gadgets, so you'll take 1 pack and 1 of other gadget, but that needs further thinking through.

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2 hours ago, alepasztet said:

Consider adding jungle style magazines which would give you faster reload speed (and also looks cool :D)

stuff-006.jpg

 

800px-Polish_AKMS.JPEG

We have a lot of models ready but no mechanic as of yet, we'll try to introduce after the new animation system goes live but no promises.

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8 hours ago, alepasztet said:

Consider adding jungle style magazines which would give you faster reload speed (and also looks cool :D)

stuff-006.jpg

 

800px-Polish_AKMS.JPEG

Those are VZ58 mags and you show guy with AK below. ?. I just thought it was funny, don't want to offend.  Being able to do this with mags for a faster reload time every other reload would be really cool!

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