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Dunabar

0.6.9 Hellfire & Stormbreaker changes and the future of Airstrikes

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Hey Folks

So this is going to be one part discussion over the cost change to the Hellfire & Stormbreaker Airstrikes and one part suggestion post. So, I will start with the big pink elephant in the room which is the cost reduction on these two Strikes.

Hellfire & Stormbreaker changes

Just going to be flat out honest here. I hate this change...like with a purple passion level of hatred for this change. This change is such a bad idea in my mind that I cannot for a moment see a single reason why anyone would bother rolling out a Vehicle with any major upgrades to it. The Cheapest IFV with only the anti-guided missile jammer alone still costs more than the Hellfire rocket and can still possibly get knocked out in one shot by the missile. Yes the thing can throw the missile off course and avoid being taken out. But, this comes at the cost of having no anti-RPG APS and the RPG-7 is a far more common threat than the Hellfire missile is to Vehicle Drivers. But, what makes the RPG-7 a more tolerable threat is the fact that you can kill the Player using it before they even get a shot off on you. The Airstrike Missiles however, can be dropped from anywhere and all you need to know is where the Tank is at in order to land a successful, destructive hit on it.

I'm sure someone will scream "Get over it, you now have an incentive to use the RCIED over the Land Electronic Defense System." But, the incentive to use the RCIED has always been there for myself personally when I started playing during 0.3. I just chose the LEDS because the RPG-7 was the most common threat and made even more dangerous when the improved trajectory of the Rocket Propelled Grenades went in. But, this is getting away from the main gripe.

I get People don't like having the Hellfire on standby because of the cost of deploying it mixed with the fact they could possibly be using something else more desirable, double so with the unknown of their target possibly having the RCIED which will make the Hellfire harmlessly hit the ground away from the Vehicle. But, dropping the Hellfire rocket down to 3000 BP is WAAAAAAAAY too cheap for such a powerful weapon. I think dropping it to either 5000 to 5500 would have been a far better choice, at least if the cost was dropped to 5500, you're paying slightly below the cost of a fully upgraded Abrams Tank and almost 1000 below a fully customized Leo Tank of 6375 BP so it largely equals out in the end at that point.

So in closing to this part of the post.

  • Increase Hellfire Airstrike from 3000 to 5000 or 5500
  • Increase Stormbreaker Airstrike from 4000 to 6500

But, I'm not entirely done with Airstrikes and this is where the "suggestion" part of this post really kicks in full gear.

Future change suggestion to Airstrikes

Since there has been a lot of bugs crawling up People's butts over certain strikes being able to be used from the Deployment Zones. I think it would be more sporting and fair of Airstrike users to have to actually get out in the general open, pull out a laser designator (something like this as an example) which produces a laser that can be tracked back to them if their target (or another Vehicle close by) has their special optics activated, and should have to stand in place to guide one of those bombs in on their target. The Tanker could even make some extra use out of their Smoke Grenades to use it as a counter effort against the laser designator itself.

But, these are just suggestions and what the Devs choose to do with them is entirely up to them in the end obviously.

Have a good one folks!

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Posted (edited)

Don't cry plz, @Dunabar, Hellfire with cost 3000 does 48 dmg to tank with direct hit. APC can't be destroyed with single hit too. So it's kinda "u've pissed me off, here is ur personal 3000BP shit on ur head" strike as of now.

Just a reminder: 1500BP Loitering Ammo with HEAT warhed deals 44 dmg to tank. So, nothing imbalancing with price reduction, as the dmg was reduced accordingly. Will test Mephisto later.

Tank after 2 consecutive hits with Hellfire and Loitering Ammo HEAT. See "Vehicle Status" bar.

20190526124939_1.thumb.jpg.2ef69ae5fa1fe4eb0b0b3a6cb1a9d1be.jpg

UPD. Strombreaker destroys APC with direct hit.

Edited by tynblpb
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31 minutes ago, tynblpb said:

Don't cry plz, @Dunabar,

Annoyed yes, crying no.

36 minutes ago, tynblpb said:

Hellfire with cost 3000 does 48 dmg to tank with direct hit. APC can't be destroyed with single hit too. So it's kinda "u've pissed me off, here is ur personal 3000BP shit on ur head" strike as of now.

1111465720_HellfireRocket.png.ac4c25fa662663a683a35ea08bde760f.png

Now it could be that the stat sheet has not been updated, but only 48 damage to a Tank seems very unlikely given what I'm seeing. Got some video to show of the testing? The PTE was quiet yesterday when I got on and the People that were around were busy testing other stuff.

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Posted (edited)
12 минут назад, Dunabar сказал:

Now it could be that the stat sheet has not been updated, but only 48 damage to a Tank seems very unlikely given what I'm seeing. Got some video to show of the testing? The PTE was quiet yesterday when I got on and the People that were around were busy testing other stuff.

Too lazy to waste 15 mins to record video but here is screenshot from 1hr ago.

48 dmg. 172 sec Hellfire cooldown. Hope it'll be enough to prove my words.

20190526124838_1.jpg.62c3dea13b0bf416906bc7624eb9084b.jpg

P.S. Cost is 3300 because i equipped Hellfire with Ammo box and now it can't be undone.😑

Edited by tynblpb
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We'll see how it goes ultimately if that is indeed the case. Though I still think how those Airstrikes are called in should be changed.

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1 hour ago, tynblpb said:

Hellfire with Ammo box

Whaaaat? 🤣🤣

 

Its like: hey guys do you need ammo? Im gonna drop you some - i have it on my big fckin rocket!

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On 5/26/2019 at 12:41 PM, Dunabar said:

 

Now it could be that the stat sheet has not been updated,

You're right, the stats didn't properly update, it's gonna be fixed in next hotfix.

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It would be cool if you could get different warheads like with loitering ammo and make it more useful or even have multiple types of hellfire in your strikes for specific situations. I think the hell fire is a bit to weak right now, but this is more my opinion without having used it. I was in a msp when one hit me, was a weird experience to survive it being so used to instant death when hit with one lol

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I think this isn't so bad right now if it doesn't one hit. There should be a one hit airstrike, but it should be really expensive like 5000 minimum. This way, there are more airstrikes in the game making RCIEDs more worthwhile for tank drivers.

On 5/26/2019 at 9:10 PM, Dunabar said:

Though I still think how those Airstrikes are called in should be changed.

Hmm. Maybe, but this could be dangerous as it means that if the tank has thermal view it could shoot down the player, which may cost them their strike. If a team is losing really really badly an airstrike like this called in by their best player may be their only hope, and losing it because you're getting spawncamped and can't get a line of sight on the vehicle that is wasting your entire team just by camping the exits from spawn just shouldn't happen.

 

13 hours ago, PointShootActionTTV said:

It would be cool if you could get different warheads like with loitering ammo and make it more useful or even have multiple types of hellfire in your strikes for specific situations.

The only way this makes sense is if you're buying anti infantry warheads because the airstrikes have tiered pricing to reflect how effective they are as anti-vehicle, and if you want to take out infantry then you should probably use bombing runs or artillery instead because they target a larger area.

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@nubbits  true that those strikes are more effective. but sometimes one big boom is all i need :p. Also I am a fan of variety, the more freedom we have with load outs the better customization we have. ( keeping reality in mind )

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On 6/2/2019 at 3:37 AM, PointShootActionTTV said:

@nubbits  true that those strikes are more effective. but sometimes one big boom is all i need :p. Also I am a fan of variety, the more freedom we have with load outs the better customization we have. ( keeping reality in mind )

I agree, guide people in a direction rather than force them. As an example, most people in game carry pretty realistic weapons not because the customization system limits them to that but because weapons that have a sensible set of parts picked out for them will perform better.

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On 5/26/2019 at 4:10 AM, Dunabar said:

We'll see how it goes ultimately if that is indeed the case. Though I still think how those Airstrikes are called in should be changed.

Maybe if the tanks required a full four player crew to function, sure. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Zvolteh said:

Maybe if the tanks required a full four player crew to function, sure. 

 

 

Nothing wrong with making People have to guide their bombs in with a laser designator, if anything their accuracy would sky rocket as all they need to do is paint the target, and let the hammer fall on the enemy while maintaining the laser on target. If anything their loss of safety gains them supreme accuracy and even then they don't have to stand in front of the hostile Vehicle's main weapon in order to guide the bomb in. People talk about Strikes needing counters, so what is exactly wrong with making players have to guide their bombs in with a Laser Designator?

Edited by Dunabar

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22 минуты назад, Dunabar сказал:

Nothing wrong with making People have to guide their bombs in with a laser designator

Butthurt, mb? Dying while trying to use 4-6k BP  strike? And what's the need in strike that can operate only in direct view zones? How can I attack C1Berlin with laser designated StormBreaker when I'm on A2. I can see C1 icon. Behind the building.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, tynblpb said:

Butthurt, mb? Dying while trying to use 4-6k BP  strike? And what's the need in strike that can operate only in direct view zones? How can I attack C1Berlin with laser designated StormBreaker when I'm on A2. I can see C1 icon. Behind the building.

Use a Bombing run from A2 onto C1, Cheaper than a Stormbreaker by 500 BP, and you cover more ground.

See here is the problem I have - Everyone talks about how things should be able to be countered in some form or fashion right? Well, what counters these Laser Guided bombs for Vehicle Drivers?

  • UCAS-D - For a very short period of time
  • Reaper Drone - If the bomb user is inside of the Jamming Circle and even then they can just get out of it to call in their bomb.
  • Killing the Player - Now I will admit I may be wrong here, but I got TK'ed earlier attempting to use a Stormbreaker on the enemy Command Vehicle, yet magically the bomb didn't hit the target even though the bomb was maybe 20 meters at best away from the target when I got TK'ed. But even then as you pointed out the person can be on the other side of the map to drop the laser guided bombs on the Vehicles.
  • RCIED - Barely works, but you can still take a pretty good chunk of splash damage even if the bomb doesn't directly hit.
  • Getting under cover - How many objectives have sufficient cover on offer for the Vehicles that still allow them to directly capture it? Berlin, Moscow, and Smolensk are the only three maps that have any sort of cover for the Vehicle to get into while they're capping the objective and even Moscow's one area of cover is pretty unreliable against Bombing runs & Artillery in my experience. All three though are death traps you're ultimately playing around with in the process since you have no wiggle room at all to avoid RPG fire.

Ultimately you have very little to worry about when you're using these Airstrikes and double so now that they're cheaper. What do Vehicle Drivers have to worry about though?

  • Being blinded from regular small arms fire (love this feature so much!)
  • MG fire if you're driving a IFV (Never tested a MG against a AFV to see if it would even tickle it)
  • RPGs
  • Landmines - Only takes 1 to kill any Vehicle (though I've heard the Ander's Anti-Mine armor can resist at least 1 Land, but that is just something I heard)
  • C4
  • UGVs with Anti-Vehicle weaponry
  • Helicopter Drones with Anti-Vehicle Weaponry
  • CUAS Drones (mainly the Loitering Ammo so far in my experience) with AP Warheads
  • HE & AP Artillery (Double so the AP Artillery)
  • Airstrikes
  • Bombing runs
  • Other IFVs
  • Other AFVs
  • Other MBTs

And all I'm suggesting is that-

  1. Players have to use Laser Designators to guide the Bombs in from the Airstrike and maintain the laser on the target area for 100% accuracy. (And no, putting the laser designator away while the bomb is falling should NOT stop the bomb from falling from the sky, nor should it render the bomb ineffective at injuring or killing anyone the moment it hits the ground. Just a CYOA kind of quick mention...)
  2. Smoke Grenades be able to block the Laser from the Laser Designator from guiding the Airstrike directly onto the desired Vehicle unless...
    • The Bomber is guiding the bomb in from an angle the Smoke isn't covering the Vehicle on (Vehicle Smoke Grenades are very limited and unlike Battlefield's magic Fart cloud, the Smoke Grenades pop out and away from the Vehicle. So even this has a chance to fail the Vehicle Driver)
  3. The Laser from the Laser Designator be able to be tracked back to the Bomber if the Vehicle (and by extension Infantry with special sights) has their Thermals on/up and locates the beam to track it back to the Bomber. Ideally once the Laser Designator is put away, turned off, or whatever, the beam would disappear, which even at that point the bomb is still falling, it's just falling without the ability to be course corrected because the Bomber isn't guiding it in.

Airstrike users get a massive accuracy boost, Vehicle Drivers get some sort of chance to attempt a counter against the Airstrike & it's user, and Bombing runs & Airstrikes are made even more different from each other. All at the cost of the Airstrike user needing to risk poking their head out from behind cover and looking through the sight of the Laser Designator for a largely optional period of time.

A lot of gain for a very small loss.

Edited by Dunabar

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9 минут назад, Dunabar сказал:

Use a Bombing run from A2 onto C1, Cheaper than a Stormbreaker by 500 BP, and you cover more ground.

Wrong. Stormbreaker is enough to clear C1. And when u hold shift to increase diving speed it's 2-3 secs to land it.

And no, laser sight designating doesn't make AirStrikes more precise. What can be more precise than fully  controllable TV-Rocket with close to zero reaction lag?

And showing urself to enemies while using few thousand BP strike is a BIG loss IMO.

 

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The difference is that a rocket drop is a single use single function strike. You get your one shot to take out or damage a very specific target. Tanks are persistent and far more powerful over a long period of time of gone unchecked. Tanks have all these "things to worry about" because you can get a kill with a tank and then continue getting as many kills as you want granted you're able to stay alive. 

 

Give me an option to spend 5000 BP to make my infantry soldier unable to be killed by anything less than 3 RPGs and a couple airstrikes. But also make people have to be in my view for them to use rockets on me, that way they have even less of an even playing field against me. That sounds like it would be fun and balanced /s 

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15 hours ago, tynblpb said:

Wrong. Stormbreaker is enough to clear C1. And when u hold shift to increase diving speed it's 2-3 secs to land it.

So is a bombing run and you can pick up more possible kills if additional enemies are attempting to run into the C1 capture zone from the east side. As for how you can do it with a laser designator, just call it in, and wait for the bomb to hit the ground. You would only need to lase the target area long enough for the bomb to start falling and the bomb will hit that area. It's not going to magically steer off into a different direction unless something is making it do so.

A Smoke Screen for example, wouldn't be a magical a force field that screams "You shall not pass!" to the Bomb of the Airstrike, it's only going to interfere with the laser of the laser designator, and all you need to do then is target a part of the Vehicle that isn't covered by smoke at which point the Bomb is back on track directly towards the Vehicle.

16 hours ago, tynblpb said:

And no, laser sight designating doesn't make AirStrikes more precise. What can be more precise than fully  controllable TV-Rocket with close to zero reaction lag?

Did 100% accuracy throw you off? Let me break this down...

Step 1 - Pull out Laser Designator.

Step 2 - Point Laser Designator reticle at the Vehicle.

Step 3 - Call in the Airstrike.

Step 4 - Keep Laser on target while waiting for the Bomb to land on target.

So long as that laser is able to freely point at the Vehicle with zero smoke interference, the Vehicle has no above cover, and the Vehicle doesn't have a RCIED off-cooldown. The Airstrike has a 100% chance to hit the Vehicle.

16 hours ago, tynblpb said:

And showing urself to enemies while using few thousand BP strike is a BIG loss IMO.

You can be out in the open and still not show yourself to the enemy directly. It's not like the enemy has to have direct eye contact on you in order for you to Laser Designate a target area, nor does the Laser Designator magically stop working just because a Vehicle's turret isn't pointing in your direction.

So, if a Vehicle Driver has to put themselves at risk to make their Vehicle worth something to their team, why should Airstrike users be given special treatment, double so during this time when People are in a huff over certain Strikes being able to be used from the Deployment Zone with little to no chance to kill the Player using the strike?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Zvolteh said:

The difference is that a rocket drop is a single use single function strike. You get your one shot to take out or damage a very specific target.

Right because I get my Vehicle automatically back magically upon it being destroyed by something and can still kill players on -all- outdoor objectives from my  Team's Deployment Zone on all maps with all Vehicles. /s

10 hours ago, Zvolteh said:

Tanks are persistent and far more powerful over a long period of time of gone unchecked. Tanks have all these "things to worry about" because you can get a kill with a tank and then continue getting as many kills as you want granted you're able to stay alive.

Able to stay alive and have the ammunition to keep fighting. A direct Combat Vehicle with no ammunition = A direct Combat Vehicle that is only slightly more useful than a destroyed one. But, ultimately here is the thing - I don't mind that Vehicles have a lot to worry about and I'm not asking for Vehicle Drivers to have access to some sort of special feature that auto-destroys Airstrikes in mid air. I'm only suggesting that Airstrikes be changed to be called in via using a Laser Designator (thus making the player have to poke their head out at the very least) and Vehicle Drivers having some sort of way to attempt to counter (not a guaranteed counter, but a chance to attempt a counter) the Airstrike & It's user. As it stands now there is a limited amount of options and 1 - 3 more isn't going to make Airstrikes useless against Vehicles. Will make it harder in certain situations, but it won't make them useless.

Edited by Dunabar

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2 часа назад, Dunabar сказал:

So is a bombing run and you can pick up more possible kills if additional enemies are attempting to run into the C1 capture zone from the east side. As for how you can do it with a laser designator, just call it in, and wait for the bomb to hit the ground. You would only need to lase the target area long enough for the bomb to start falling and the bomb will hit that area. It's not going to magically steer off into a different direction unless something is making it do so.

A Smoke Screen for example, wouldn't be a magical a force field that screams "You shall not pass!" to the Bomb of the Airstrike, it's only going to interfere with the laser of the laser designator, and all you need to do then is target a part of the Vehicle that isn't covered by smoke at which point the Bomb is back on track directly towards the Vehicle.

Did 100% accuracy throw you off? Let me break this down...

Step 1 - Pull out Laser Designator.

Step 2 - Point Laser Designator reticle at the Vehicle.

Step 3 - Call in the Airstrike.

Step 4 - Keep Laser on target while waiting for the Bomb to land on target.

So long as that laser is able to freely point at the Vehicle with zero smoke interference, the Vehicle has no above cover, and the Vehicle doesn't have a RCIED off-cooldown. The Airstrike has a 100% chance to hit the Vehicle.

You can be out in the open and still not show yourself to the enemy directly. It's not like the enemy has to have direct eye contact on you in order for you to Laser Designate a target area, nor does the Laser Designator magically stop working just because a Vehicle's turret isn't pointing in your direction.

So, if a Vehicle Driver has to put themselves at risk to make their Vehicle worth something to their team, why should Airstrike users be given special treatment, double so during this time when People are in a huff over certain Strikes being able to be used from the Deployment Zone with little to no chance to kill the Player using the strike?

U r just simply making rocket-strikes useless with this. With limited range, limited usability, and too dangerous for their user. 

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56 minutes ago, tynblpb said:

U r just simply making rocket-strikes useless with this. With limited range, limited usability, and too dangerous for their user. 

Without actually testing it, we cannot say for a fact that it would be useless and while one avenue of usage would close, it doesn't mean a new one could not open in the process. In the end though it's merely a suggestion and like any suggestion I make (and have stated enough times to beat a horse into red paste) - I just make the suggestion, what the Developers do with it is entirely up to them.

As for it being "too dangerous for their user." I guess this means only the most adaptable, daring, and I guess by extension crazy would use it. Sign me up for Crazy Club membership.

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Quite frankly this is a very long post and thread so I won't be addressing every detail here, but I'll say this much; 

I absolutely love the laser designator idea. I think this is much better than having a free kill from anywhere on the map where you're absolutely invulnerable, on something that costs so much BP, for (currently) such a little price. This idea could make it so that teamwork or at least very smart positioning is a much more viable option, and I like this. It would also really add some immersion, and overall I love the idea.

"Too dangerous for their user" Well, too dangerous for those who up to now play the game like Blitz in R6S, or for those who are way too used to using missiles from a safe location, as opposed to useful (and free) tools such as the RPG or AT mine.

Big up, Dun.

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12 minutes ago, TCPPolak said:

I think this is much better than having a free kill from anywhere on the map where you're absolutely invulnerable

here is the heli laughts :D

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